From Spies to Avatars: The Last Airbender Meets the Smiths and a Killer Paradox

>> Sarah : Greetings, nerds. This is Scene N Nerd I'm your host, Sarah Belmont, and with me, as always, is our Mr. Producer, Will Polk. How are you doing tonight, will?

>> Will: Doing very well. Happy leap day.

>> Sarah : Yeah, I think this is the first time that we've ever recorded on the, February 29.

>> Will: It is, you know, as. As the geek that I am, I actually did go back and look and see, the previous leap year, how, if we did or not, and we just missed it by, like, two days the last time. The last leap year. but, yeah, it's pretty cool to, not only do it on a leap day, and it's also Superman's birthday.

>> Sarah : Of course you would know that.

>> Will: Of course I would. Yeah. Gotta get a bona fide out there.

>> Sarah : Yeah.

The iconic cyberpunk novel necromancer is being developed into a miniseries

all right, so to start off with some tv movie news, or news about tv and movies, the iconic cyberpunk novel Neuromancer is being developed into a miniseries on Apple tv. I've never heard of this.

>> Will: It's, It's an awesome book, written by.

>> Will: Was. It's been a series. Anybody in, really. It is truly iconic. It was kicked off a trilogy of books, the Neuromancer and then Count Zero and Mona Lisa overdrive. Folks who are familiar with it, will really excited to hear this news. they tried to do this show back in, I guess, 2017 with, Deadpool's director, but I think it was Fox, but it never went anywhere. But basically, the premise of the story is, Henry, case is a disgraced computer hacker. he was punished for stealing some of the employer data, and he's in a virtual reality network, and basically he's given a shot of getting back into good graces and everything. And so it really is a tale of that. And, I've read the book years ago. Loved it, and I still have my copy, actually. but like I said, folks were pretty excited to see that this is finally being adapted into a ten episode limited series on Apple tv.

>> Sarah : Limited series, wow.

>> Will: Yeah. And also the book has the distinction of actually winning a Hugo award, a Nebula award, and a Philip K. Dick Awards. So it's truly, like, seminal work as far as, really establishing the cyberpunk genre as far as in literature.

>> Sarah : Right. cool. Well, something for me, to know about that's coming in the future.

>> Will: Yeah.

All right, so you finished killer paradox? I did. I really enjoyed this series

>> Sarah : All right, so you finished killer paradox?

>> Will: I did.

>> Sarah : Okay.

>> Will: I did. I really enjoyed this series, I'll tell you. Go. I'm fine doing spoiler talk. We can. Spoiler alert folks, we're going to go into a killer paradox. And if you haven't watched it, just, fast forward to the last airbender, which we'll take. Talk.

>> Sarah : Killer paradox is something that you want to go into not knowing anything about. the more you know, the more I don't know. I think that you won't see some of the more you know about the story, the more it takes away from the overall, like, what the fuck is going on? specifically for the first two episodes, which I just looked on IMDb, those are the highest rated episodes of the show, narrowly, followed by, the last episode. But overall, for there being eight episodes, it's pretty consistent across the board, I will admit. I fell off. I watched the first four episodes within one week. I took my time with this and then I had life stuff happen. So when I got around to the next two episodes, I was like, I don't know, it's been a while. Let me jump back in. and that's when they introduce the main antagonist. And, he bothered the hell out of me. He just felt, too much like a caricature. He didn't feel real. That saga lost me. But I do admit, episode eight, the finale, was actually pretty good. So there was some redemption for it. But, yeah, it was much more higher on the first few episodes than I was towards the end.

>> Will: Yeah, I totally get that because I was that way too, because it has multiple genres going on in it. And so those first few episodes is like going in one direction. And you're right. When Lee Tany was on the run and he went to the next town, Busan, or I believe was the name of the, Yeah, it did take a different twist. And then I remember you messaging me about, I think I told you I was like, watching episode four or five or something like that. And you're like, oh, yeah. when they introduce,

>> Will: One of the main, I guess, if that's the antagonist you're talking about, the Batman fantasy mastermind of like.

>> Sarah : No, he's not an antagonist, though, I guess.

>> Will: Yeah. I just wanted to be sure if you were talking about him or song. So that's why I wanted.

>> Sarah : I was talking about song.

>> Will: Okay.

>> Sarah : Yeah, he's not an antagonist. he's the man in the chair.

>> Will: Yeah, the man in the chair. I was almost going to call him like a puppet master because he is, but he isn't.

>> Sarah : It's very interesting to, like, I loved them exploring his dynamic. not with tong, but with, the detective namgam. And just because overall, I think I found it interesting that the first two episodes, it's all about Tong, and you're really following him. And a part of me was wondering, just, like, why is this our protagonist? we're watching things happen to him in a weird way, and he's also kind of just not like he has nothing going for him. but circumstances just lead him down this path. and who ultimately is the hero and the main character of the story is namgam, and who's just the detective who's first hunting down tong. But then they do this thing where they lead it into what's going on with his father and his whole family history. And that breakdown, it got a bit too coincidental, for that song, overall. They let him talk so freaking much, especially in the finale, that I was like, just, can somebody please put me out of my misery? And I know one of you will kill him. Just kill him. And here's something to talk about.

Will: I appreciate the decision that bin had to die in that finale

and here's my question for you, Will. So in the finale, we have the big face off. I did appreciate the decision that bin had to die in that, because that made sense. Like, his arc is complete. but what did you think about how it was namgom and not Tong who killed song in the end?

>> Will: I thought that was where it was going to go, especially when song started really going through the exposition of Namgan's, father and his genie mother and all that kind of stuff. I was like, yeah, it's coming. But I think the reason why I saw it coming was because, really, the crux of this series, to me, especially as it developed, was the overarching question, okay, is it okay, at least for me, what I got out of it was, is it okay to murder someone when they have committed a multitude of sins? Because all the people that Robin had set Tong and song after were people who had done shitty things, and he was just using them. The vengeance, the Batman.

>> Sarah : Yeah, he was playing superhero.

>> Will: He was playing superhero. Yeah, he was playing vigilante. So when it did go down that way, even though I was hoping it would be the two pawns ultimately taking each other out, but the way they had structured things, I was like, yeah, the detective, he's going to take song out.

>> Sarah : And by you saying that's going to happen, you're okay, you think that was the right decision?

>> Will: I was okay with that decision, especially how things end. How things ended in the. In the series. Yeah, actually, I was. I did not have. I felt it was earned I did.

>> Sarah : Yeah. I don't think it wasn't earned. it makes sense, but it almost makes too much sense to me because I'm just thinking, especially with the very end of how he tells Tong, you'll never kill again, or I'll come and get you. And, well, at the very, end, that's kind of what is alluded to, like, tong kills again, and it's kind of like, so what was the point? Well, no, I think what overall was the point? Character. I understand they did finish this circle, but they've inadvertently created another one. And now, in my opinion, Nangam has not much to stand on because he was the good one and you got to do it by the law. Justice is served in the courts. It's the whole police aspect of it. And, yet he got his own vengeance by killing someone who. Yeah, these are despicable people, who are ending up dying. But I don't know, I just question whether they could have got. Whether if they had been less concerned with tying up so many loose threads at the very end, could they come up with a more creative or interesting, fallout or play of events at the very end?

>> Will: Yeah, well, I think that's part, and I think that's why I was okay with it. Because in a weird way, instead of tong being the instrumentality to take out song that Ben was hoping, I guess I think Ben was trying to. That was what he was angling towards, especially whenever we see them at, I think, the showdown, at that old restaurant or whatever, nang, the detective ends up being the new vigilante in that situation. but then once he satisfied his thirst for vengeance, there, he wasn't going to like, he's like, tom, go, don't kill anyone else. But if you do, I'm on to you now, but go. I think it was really showing that, at least in this instance, it was okay to kill. But whereas I think the other two were more kind of song was like a blood sport, bloodthirsty person. Tongus is sort of the accidental killer who just really the whole spidey sense thing, fantasy element that he had, it seems like he still managed to maintain some control of that bloodlust. unlike song, who truly just had that bloodlust. I was okay with how things sort of ended with that. Because if the detective had killed, killed, turned and shot Tang, then I would have been like, nah, now, see, you went from hero to, like, anti hero.

>> Sarah : Well, yeah, but I'm just saying it doesn't matter if he had killed Tong, and I'm not suggesting he should have killed Tong. Then after that, just. I just don't necessarily agree or think it was the best decision for him to have taken out.

>> Will: Yeah, I completely see your point. And like, it was to me, as things were unfolding, it was the predictable thing. But I think just the way that the season had built up everything, even after the tonal and thematic shifts that it took, sort of there in the middle of the series, it really.

>> Sarah : Did take a shift because it stopped doing a lot of the cool editing tricks that it did in the first episode in particular. And I was like, where are we? But it played with time a little bit and things just seemed to slow down. yeah, it was a weird shift, but I'm glad I watched it. I'm glad I missed it.

>> Will: Yeah, I'm so glad you told me about it. Thanks for recommending that. I really enjoyed it and I'm sure if folks listen to this section of the podcast, they definitely enjoyed it as well.

>> Sarah : Yeah, no problem.

Last night I watched the first episode of Netflix's Avatar, last airbender

I'm always trying to find those gems out there, unexpected, gems, which we tried something new this week, too. and we told people, listeners all about it, that we're going to dive into the last airbender, Avatar. So I'm just going to make this conversation very clear. We are moving to showgun next week. Next week we're going to start showgun. And I've kind of figured that out. Last night when I sat down to watch Avatar, last airbender and within the opening credits, I see in production, like in collaboration with Nickelodeon, I'm like, oh, shit.

>> Will: You didn't know that?

>> Sarah : No, I didn't know that, will. Sometimes I'm thinking to myself, I'm like, I don't know how much will realizes that I, do not follow things nearly as much as I did when we started the podcast. now, because I overthink things and the more I know, the more it messes with my expectations and then it just ruins so much for me. point taken. Even though I didn't know that, I knew that after seeing the credit and then, of course, my whole judgment was clouded. Granted, if you're a fan of Avatar, the last airbender, then good for you. I hope you enjoy this show. for me, as someone who knows nothing about the lore, but I feel like I got an entire expositional dump of information about everything that happened and was going to happen within the first half hour of this show. I'm like, yeah, I'm good on this. I want to go watch an adult tv show.

>> Will: Yeah. I mentioned to you before, and I have seen episodes back in the day. Never was big. I can't say I'm knowledgeable about this series. I did know, speaking of Nickelodeon thing, the original, creators of the show from Nickelodeon were originally involved with this project and then walked away for creative differences. Folks who are steeped in the Lord and fans of the original show, who were expecting a one for one or heavily influenced or whatever, I've seen a lot of fans out there, other source material who really are down on this show. maybe not as. Not as much as cowboy bebop.

>> Sarah : Yeah. All I kept thinking about was one piece I did, too. The production, the sets. Very similar. Very similar, in my opinion. I feel like Netflix put money into this just like they did with one piece. But when I look back and think back on the first episode of was, there was momentum and there was mystery. And that's what I think the writers forgot about with this. They were too focused on. Everyone needs to know all about these kingdoms. Everyone needs to know that the Fire Lord is plotting to take out all of this information, but they forgot while writing all of that exposition that you're basically spoon feeding everything to your viewer and there's no mystery.

>> Will: Yeah. and don't repeat three times in the pilot. We got it at the beginning. We got it again, I think, in the airbender village, and then we got it again from grandma in the water village.

>> Sarah : And there's 100 year gap here. You could have done so much with time to start at literally the very beginning of the story. No, because it's all telegraphed from there.

>> Will: I will say, because when it started out, because, again, I, haven't seen maybe a handful of episodes of the original. so I do know that they did not show the genocide that occurred from the fire kingdom to the. With all the things that we got exposition dumped. But the way the series started out, I was like, okay, we got the earthbender doing his thing and everything. I was like, okay, this is good, this is good. But then, I don't know, as it progressed, I was just like, just like, I got that, the, lord of the Rings show. The rings, of power vibe where I was just like, beautiful shot. They put a lot of money into this thing. Can't complain about the effects and the setting and all that kind of stuff. Costumes, everything's on point as far as, like. But it was just, like, so much eye candy that to your point, they forgot just basic storytelling. You get your one shot. It's just like a podcast or whatever. It's like you tune in for the first few minutes or so, 30 seconds to a minute or so, and, if the people engage you, you stick with it. If not, you're out. Ah. And I was just sort of like, okay, I watched the first episode and it's not a good sign if you're watching the pilot and you're starting to check your twitter.

>> Sarah : I actually had to go and get something from upstairs, so instead of pausing, I literally left it plain.

I just didn't feel a connection to any of the characters

And we talked a little about this last week when we were wrapping up reacher. A, thing that bothered me too, was for all of the exposition. They had some awfully long, fight sequences, which were just not the best choreographed. And m they were large and they were massive, but it was just, I'm, like, okay, I don't care. I'm not attached because I kind of know, because especially the first one, all I'm thinking in my mind, I'm like, well, okay, so logically, he's the last airbender. That means, okay, so this planet is going to be successful and this whole entire, they're all going to die. So why do I care? Oh, you're supposed to care because ong cares. Like aang cares. Yeah, but m.

>> Will: To your point too, with one piece, and I know it's kid actors and stuff, so in the hell, I'm not an actor. I mean, I only did, like drama class and a couple of semesters in college and that kind of things. I don't even profess to be that. But, again, I don't know if it's a story, a function of script or the acting. But luffy, again, that magna, like, I felt rooting for with just, I just didn't feel a connection to the character. And again, I don't know if it was just the performance or if it was just, or it's the writing. yeah, I think because I'm just like the poor kid just didn't have anything really interesting to work with.

>> Sarah : No, he played his part the way it was written. I can't say it was his acting because I haven't watched enough of his work. Most of the landlord watched this one episode, and so I don't blame any of the actors. I think they literally played what they were given. The dialogue just was not interesting. It felt dumbed down and it felt show. It's something that was produced by Nickelodeon. So that says it all.

>> Will: Yeah, but the Nickelodeon folks don't have anything to do with it, which I think is probably where the charm of the original series is lost.

>> Sarah : Okay, well, well, that's a fair point, I guess. I wasn't really tracking, but the company still has something to do with it. But you're right, the original creators, which is why one piece worked, because the creator was involved with it. So you need that, in these type of shows that already have a major fandom, much less you need it because they are probably smart enough to figure out how to get new members of the fandom, how to gain interest, how to tell a story slightly in a new way, so that you can attract someone who doesn't know anything about it. And I just think overall they took the easy route and told the story very straightforward. And the whole time I'm just like, well, this is boring. It's just boring. I can't think of another word to describe it because it's muddled down and it's very straightforward and they literally tell it in a very straightforward manner and there isn't enough time to grow attached to like you do with Luffy. And it's not even that. That first episode is all about mean. Ah, we are introduced to a lot of characters. We're introduced to a lot of characters here too. But as we're introduced, some of them, like, so then you get attachment issues and then by the time you get to the ice wolf cove to meet, Katara. Katara and her brother Soka, who actually, I would argue you should have started with them. Started with, them. They make a discovery. You learn about the past through the present. I m mean, we've seen that a bit before, but at least that can build some mystery. And there was no tension. I mean, the biggest mystery that there was for me was what was going on with Zuko.

>> Will: Yeah. And, oh, a little bit of appa.

>> Sarah : I don't know, me, not so much. But anyways, yeah, I'm glad we gave it a shot. I'm not completely surprised.

I think it was bad. I think the way they're telling the story isn't working

We're moving on to showgun.

>> Will: Yeah, like I said, as I mentioned to you last night, it wasn't that it was bad. I mean, I've seen bad. It just wasn't for me.

>> Sarah : I think it was bad. Okay, here's why I think it was bad and why I'm fully able to say that without any butts. It's that when you told me that you're hearing from people who do know this story and who follow this lore. They think it's bad. I'm like, okay, so this isn't just me not liking the lore. The way they're telling the story isn't working.

>> Will: Yeah, that's fair.

>> Sarah : But you're right. We have seen worse things. all right, we're moving on from Avatar again. We will start Shogun next week and, to see if we can, get on board with that ship as we continue with Mr. And m, Mrs. Smith.

Ok, we got two episodes, and I know one in particular might take some consideration

Ok, we got two episodes, and I know one in particular might take some, so. All right. Because will told me last week that he likes it, that I've been doing this. I'm going to start with episode five. Do you want kids? The IMDb description for this episode of Mr. And Mrs. Smith says John and Jane spend summer in lake Como, driving cars, dodging criminals, and chasing slippery Toby, whose crimes endanger them. Caring for this baby man makes them ponder parenthood. Okay, I feel as though the second sentence sums up the episode more so than the first.

>> Will: Yes, it does. Yeah, it does.

>> Sarah : So what did you think about this episode?

>> Will: So I'm glad that we paired this one and episode six together, as far as discussing, but I like this episode again, and I probably sound like a broken record here, but this series, and like you said, the second sentence really does, paint what this episode was about. And it was the ponder parenthood in the exploration of those questions in relationships, whenever, of course, they're married now. And the title episodes, do you want kids? And Toby was the metaphor of the baby and what that would entail if they brought a child into this world doing the work that they do. So I thought, again, this shows how brilliant the show is as far as some of the writing, as far as just some of the structural things they do to explore John and Jane and explore relationships in this world that they have built in this show. So I like this episode. I like this episode. It was a good change of pace for me, from it, because.

>> Sarah : I.

>> Will: Think maybe the third or fourth after the blind date, episode, this was a good change of pace for me.

>> Sarah : shout out to Ron Perlin.

>> Will: Oh, yes.

>> Sarah : I forgot how much I like watching him. And, I didn't know when I first realized or saw, like, oh, Ron Perlman is going to guest star in this episode. I was like, that's an interesting choice. And I'm like, no, this is perfect. John's disdain for Toby was hilarious, and what sealed the deal was he pushed him and it was a small ledge and then he peed himself. I don't know. this episode was really good because of the chemistry between those three characters and going into it. Yeah, it's pretty obvious that they're going to talk about kids.

High: I'm trying to figure out the concept of time in this episode

So instead of contemplating that, all I kept thinking about was I was trying to figure out the concept of time.

>> Sarah : Just because. How long have they been married? Yeah, it's been several, what, months?

>> Will: Or maybe longer.

>> Sarah : Has it been a half year?

>> Will: I think it's closer to a year than a half a year. Yeah. Because it just seems like. Because the way they were talking about other missions and stuff, it just seemed like. It seemed quite removed from the blind date. I mean, not the blind date, the double date.

>> Sarah : yeah. I'm not sure what that means because I'm also not sure how much time has gone on between the other episodes. And why this is important to me is just because when you figure out how much time they've been together, that's literally how long they've been married, how long they've known each other is how long they've been married for. I want to understand time more in terms of the story, just so I can better understand whose side of this argument I am on, because initially, my first instinct is always to go Team Jane, obviously team vagina. but at the same time, John does make some fair just. I also think he's a little bit naive because it's like, dude, do you realize what you're doing for a living? Do you realize? Yeah, I don't understand. This is initially why I took Jane's side is because, like, what are you talking about? Like, you have a gun in your.

>> Will: But. But it gets to the heart, too, of the question where couples do have this split.

>> Sarah : I totally understand the metaphor.

>> Will: No, it's not the metaphor, for sure, but as far as picking sides and stuff. Go ahead. I forgot what I was going to say.

>> Sarah : Oh, sorry.

>> Will: Yeah.

>> Sarah : well, now I forgot what I was going to say. I need to know how much time is.

>> Will: I agree with the time. I think for the time. For me, I agree with you that it helps sort of contextualize the things going on in the episode as far as the dynamics, or at least for me. and where they are. As far as, like, does this really make sense or not with what John is asking?

>> Sarah : Know, it kind of reminds me of the double date and just when the other John and Jane found out the original plan to make as much money as we can and then split, it's like you guys still, not only are you kind of naive about your marital arrangement here, your workmarital arrangement. We're going to get into therapy. Don't worry. next episode. But you're also naive about your employer and just what you literally signed up for. To think like it's as easy as we can cut the cord as much as we want, that's going to blow up in their face. Man, now I just want to go back to the AA. And I wish John had brought up kids.

>> Will: I wish he had, too. Yeah, I wish he had to. The other thing about time, too, is just also the progression in their professional relationship because they still have their moments where. And, I know, like I said, we'll get to therapy here in a minute, but, they still have those moments where they're still trying to fill each other out, but they do seem, at least at their base level, some of the things that the earlier episodes where they were but tripping over each other, that has subsided some. I mean, there's still some elements of it because we get that especially high. High definitely sees Jane as the alpha in the, Know, we get the text messages know, they're know. Asking her, do you want another, you know, again? Goes back to the. I couldn't help but think about the double date episode. Whenever they're over dinner, they were asking, I think Jane and, They did switch partners. Right. Was it the wife, Jane, too? Did she get a new John? Or was it John got a new.

>> Sarah : They didn't. They didn't explain. Wasn't so much. I don't know. I don't know if it was a replacement. And I don't know what that, like, do you literally have to kill the other? Which.

John asks Jane if she wants to replace him in episode six

Which is a fair point to bring up, because at the end of this episode, hi. Asks Jane, does she want to replace? Now, I totally understand that conversation. You say no. Why the heck would you tell John?

>> Will: Well, I think it's that, I guess the building of the trust.

>> Sarah : But she had to know that that would make him upset and he would start to resent her, logically speaking.

>> Will: Yeah. Or she just didn't. Maybe this is where she, still has that blind spot as far as just reading the room and reading his emotions and him feeling invalidated. I think that really plays into that second mission in therapy. Have she pushes the gal off the building and all.

>> Sarah : The second one.

>> Will: Yeah.

>> Sarah : Was it, M. Yes, that was the second John didn't. John has asthma.

>> Will: All those little small moments really start to really contextualize, because whenever they were talking to her about replacing John, how he was, I was like thinking back to the date, what does replacing mean? Does it just mean that does he go get placed with another Jane or do they murder know? Does it go down to low know since they put that out mean what that is? And then also just manipulation. But I guess Jane, also, to your question about why does she tell him hi. Always sends the bottle of wine, congratulating her on the mission. John never gets anything. So I guess he knows because they're always getting that bottle of wine or some gift from.

>> Sarah : So, he knows that you want.

>> Will: To replace him, not replace him. He knows that as far as the agency, the agency sees her as a higher value employee than him.

>> Sarah : Yeah. it just came out of left field for me because up until that moment, I had never seen anything that would lead me to believe that they did. And then they started that thread, which they continued into episode six, couples therapy. parentheses, naked and afraid, which the IMDb description is. Oh, John. Oh, Jane. Our pair have been oh so bad at sharing and caring. Time to call and help John and Jane get ready for couples therapy. What a gas.

Sarah Paulson comesos as Jane's therapist in this episode

Ak also, Sarah Paulson cameos in this episode as their therapist. My question is, was she hired by the company?

>> Will: No, I don't think she was.

>> Sarah : Was she a target?

>> Will: No, I don't think she was.

>> Sarah : They truly love the house at the.

>> Will: End because she was recording the sessions and they didn't want anything that could be used to compromise them. if by some chance some bad actor came across it or whatever, or even quite frankly, the agency, finding those tapes.

>> Sarah : Yeah, the agency makes more sense. I'm sure the agency knew that they were going to do this, though. I mean, their whole house is probably bugged.

>> Will: Oh, yeah, I'm sure. Probably is. Maybe that's why they destroyed it, because they're like, hey, who knows?

>> Will: I could be completely wrong when I watched episode seven and eight, but I think this was they truly, after the events of the episode five and all the seeds were, planted, and some of the strain, in the relationship, I think, came fully to a head after that mission with the house and John buying a house, the whole kids discussion and everything. And then, of course, hi. Sending the bottle of wine and congratulating Jane. I think things reached a point. But I have to say, I really enjoyed how they framed this episode throughout as far as each session. because when they first go in there, they're both sitting there on the couch together. They're very open. Second session, they're still sitting this couch together. But Jane has a pillow, so they don't hold hands anymore. And then, of course, the third one, they're on opposite sides. I just really liked just the way this episode was just framed throughout and colored hues and everything too, was just really. I know we always. Our gold standard, I guess, as far as therapy episodes, is the doom patrol episode. Therapy patrol. So I was like, this one gives therapy patrol a run for me.

>> Sarah : Right? Yeah. This is a really good episode.

What was your favorite therapy session on Crazy Ex-Girlfriend

What was your favorite therapy session? Because there's three of them in, think.

>> Will: Wow, that's a good, think. I don't know. Because the first session seemed to be where I was kind of like Team John. And then the second one, I was m. You know, as things progressed, I was getting more and more team Jane. but to answer your question.

>> Will: I think it was the second one.

>> Sarah : Why the second one?

>> Will: that's sort of, I, guess the pivot point for where I think in the second session, that was the one where, she suggests them to have their time out when things get too, If. I think if both John and Jane were really introspective and really use those sessions to do some introspection, they could have maybe overcome some of their challenges that it wouldn't have gotten to that, third place where things went completely off the rails, in their relationship. So I think it was that second one because it really was the one, for me, that sort of set up that really made that. When they were on that third mission, what made that whole argument, really hit home, as far as just hitting the right emotional beats and stuff. Because if they had done what therapist had acts, I don't think they would have gotten to that place while they.

>> Sarah : Were playing naked and afraid out of the woods.

>> Will: So what about you?

>> Sarah : Ah, session wise, I'll just say the first one to be different, therapy wise, the, naked and afraid was the best post therapy session session, because I think that is the most honest conversation those two have had in the entire season. So it was a fight, but there were things that needed to be said. I found it very interesting how Jane, because I didn't recognize this. I know the seed was there, of course. I mean, all of these seeds. I get it to the point where I'm like, gay. That's great, guys. I know how to watch the show. Thank you. You need to stop planting. You're doing a bit over planting, but whatever. the whole prophet thing, the fact that she thought. That that was why they were paired together.

>> Sarah : That was just like, okay, interesting. Because for someone who's basically an ice queen, you still latched on to the sentimental thing and was like, there's a reason. but maybe it makes sense because she's very logical, so she's like, no, there's a reason why the company thought this would work. And, oh, he likes my favorite book, so that must be why they think we shall work. granted, if she was really smart, she would have realized her neighbor likes that book too. So granted, there's more than just one other person on the world who likes,

John and Jane's relationship takes a left turn in this episode

And then to get the whole John and his mother dynamic with Jane, I really appreciated the left turn because I like how this conversation makes it clear that there has been off, they have had conversations and gotten to know each other that we haven't seen. The relationship is more lived in, which I think I felt more throughout both of these episodes than I did leading up to them. When he finally has had enough with all of the mom comments and she crosses the line, with him and he just goes in and it's brutal. It's brutal. Because, yes, Jane should not have said what she said about his mom, but to call her out for how she has treated her father since her mom. Because. Because there's still this thing about Jane where her childhood is so much of a mystery. Because the quote unquote stories that we have heard and John has heard, it's kind of like you still don't really know what's real, what is jokingly hinting at the, like, you know, that there's something dark there, but you're not sure what it is because there's clearly been trauma. I thought all of that was good.

How much of this episode was ad libbed? I'm wondering

I like this therapy sessions just because I'm also wondering while watching this episode, how much of the. We have to talk about our working dynamic, but not too specifically so we're programmers. How much of that stuff was adlibbed? I'm sorry, that must have been so much fun for Donald Glover to do just as an ad lib. Like, we're going to have a fake therapy. Like, we can't really say what happened at work, so we're going to have to say it in code. so I want to say probably a lot of the therapy, like, that stuff, was ad libbed.

>> Will: yeah, I agree with you. It definitely seems ad libbed. as you're talking about the blow up at the fire, for me, it was like, yeah, you're right. It is really where this episode really shows how lived in the relationship is. Because whenever you have these kind of brutal fights with your significant other or family member or whoever, you know, the pain points and know what buttons to push. And you're right, it clearly shows that they've had other things outside. There's been things off screen that they've had these arguments, about John talking to his mother and Jane being very, I guess, opaque about her family relationship.

>> Sarah : Well, it's not that he talks to his mother. It's that his mom is still his emergency.

>> Will: That to me was the part where I was just. That's the part where I was like, damn. She loves this. Fallen even in her own has. She's Fallen in love with John. She really does care about, doesn't.

>> Sarah : She doesn't do relationships in a way. And I think she has a lot of mistrust. But because the company paired her with John, I don't know if it's love. See, there's something about it. And it's so hard because it's all like. They didn't fall in love. They were literally paired together. And sure, they could generate feelings and everything. I don't know if they're at love yet.

>> Will: I think they are.

>> Will: You don't have that kind of passionate fight like they did if you don't care about that person. Beyond the perfunctory professional parrying thing, that argument there when they. Over the lie. Because it, Gets to the basic thing of just respect. And John doesn't feel respected by Jane. That's why the whole thing about her making him feel stupid and stuff, he doesn't feel that she respects him. And in turn, she doesn't feel that he respects her. Because he's like doing this condescending, this is man bill fire, bill tent. That kind of stuff. So that's like true. And that's why, for me, that's why the second scene was like set up that third. Not the third therapy session. But I guess that incident happened, I guess before the third therapy session, Time wise. Yeah, I think that makes sense why they were like on the opposite sides of the couch. Because they had the big blow up at that point.

>> Sarah : Right? Yeah. It's kind of hard timeline. Because they are in therapy talking about the events of the past week.

>> Will: Yeah.

>> Sarah : And so the fire, naked and frayed, is the event of the third therapy session.

>> Will: Yeah.

>> Sarah : Right.

>> Will: Because the second therapy session. Because I guess the preceding week, it was when it was the card game.

>> Sarah : The second therapy, Session was about, Jane pushing that guy off.

>> Will: That's right.

>> Sarah : While John tried to run up the stairs.

>> Will: Right? Yeah. The first session was the card game. The card game, yeah. Because the second session, I guess they had stopped, I think. Yeah, they weren't having sex anymore because I guess she was, like, again, felt disrespected because the way that he was talking with his boys.

>> Sarah : M m exactly. She stopped having sex with him.

>> Will: Again.

>> Sarah : Jane doesn't kids it.

>> Will: No. Well, the kids probably also had something to do with it, too, but there's that lack, I guess, the wall of intimacy or whatever was starting to break down at that point.

>> Sarah : Right?

>> Will: Yeah.

>> Sarah : Right.

>> Will: That's why, like I said, this episode, it really ranks up there with me, with therapy patrol, because there's just so many levels. M I did watch some pieces of it over. Whenever we were talking about it the other night, I did go back and I was like, I got to watch some of this again, because hasn't been an episode of tv recently where I've been like, I got to go watch that one again. But this episode definitely was one for me, where I had to go do that because it just explored so many different levels, that we could spend one episode on.

>> Sarah : I have rewatched episodes of one. yeah. Looking forward to next week where we wrap up this season with episodes seven and eight of Mr. And Mrs. Smith.

Please follow our crew on Twitter at scene and nerdfriend us on Facebook

And on that note, will, why don't you tell our listeners where they can find you?

>> Will: Yes, you can find me on x, formerly known as Twitter, at will mpolk. Willmpolk.

>> Sarah : And you can find me there, too, at SJ Belmont. S-J-B-L-M-M-O-N-T. Please follow our crew on Twitter at scene and nerdfriend us on Facebook. Follows and Instagram and threads at scene, underscore n underscore nerd. And visit our website, ww dot, scenanderdpodcast.com. But most important, rate follow and comment on Apple podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcast. Good night. Geek out. You're welcome.