Paradise on Hulu Ep. 5 Review: Cal's Final Days & Invincible S3 Eps 1-3 Kickoff!

>> Sarah : Greetings nerds. This is Scene N Nerd. I'm your host, Sarah Belmont, and with me as always, is our Mr. Producer, Will Polk How are you doing tonight, Will?

>> Will: Doing very well, Sarah. Hope you're doing well and happy early Valentine's Day.

>> Sarah : Yeah. Tomorrow is Valentine's Day.

>> Will: Yes, it is. Yes it is.

>> Sarah : That is a day that happens once a year.

>> Will: Exactly.

>> Sarah : so do you want to start off with the Black History Month spotlight?

>> Will: Yeah, Yeah. I found like this movie so I've been like, you know, I've been trying to like stay clear of like the usual like of course trying to stay in the genre but didn't want to do like all the top five, you know, African American actors or movies and sci fi, or anything like that. So I was going down the, down the rabbit hole as far as film history and stuff and I found this movie from 1940 called Son of In Goddy Igagi. And it was like apparently the first like all black cast and in a, in a motion picture in, in 1940. I did actually watch it. If you go on YouTube, I'll post it on our show notes so folks can go check it out. But basically it sounds a little bit like a film that I talked about last week with that is starring IO, from the bear.

>> Will: The film's. The tagline is a newlywed couple is visited by a strange old woman who harbors a secret about the young girl's father. So it's, it's a horror film but it's also in a sci fi genre as well. So it's about an hour. It's a fair use. It's all, it's posted on YouTube. it's about an hour and a half long and I, you know, I did watch it and it was pretty good actually. I, I really did really did enjoy it. And that is again like I said, just based off of some of the film websites and stuff that I've been looking around and stuff. I think it was the first film that had an all black cast in 1940. So I guess they were woke even back then.

>> Sarah : Wow.

>> Will: Yeah. Yeah. but good. Yeah. But I'll post it on the show notes. So if anybody wants where I found it on YouTube. So if you want to, want to go, anyone wants to go check it out, you can do so. And but yeah, that, that was the that was the profile for this week.

>> Sarah : so I I didn't watch any of the Super Bowl.

>> Will: Well really as far as the game itself, I mean, it was over, like, it was over the first half. I mean, hell, even the first quarter, I mean, it was a dismantling of, the Kansas City Chiefs by the Eagles. They were just. It was just. The Chiefs picked a bad day to have a bad day.

>> Sarah : Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's what I've seen and everything that, like, I, like, I didn't watch it live, but I watched after the fact, the halftime show, and I watched and I've seen things. like suddenly my for you page on TikTok is flooded with all of this stuff about the. Either the Phillies, K QB or the, the cornerback or the, the receiver. I think that's the position. But, but yeah, so it's, it was a funny change of pace, than what I'm used to, but, yeah, I don't, I don't really know how to talk about the Super Bowl. Will, you're gonna have to help me out.

>> Will: I mean, honestly, there were, there was there, There were some trailers. I don't know if you watched the, the, Thunderbolts trailer.

>> Sarah : No, I'm, I'm sticking to a one and done.

>> Will: Okay.

>> Sarah : Trailers. I'm like, I'm watching one trailer. I might happen to catch something, but, But I'm not, I'm not seeking out more information about movies I'm gonna go see.

>> Will: Yeah, I mean, I watched it. you know, I didn't even, even that Even super bowl night. I was like, yeah, still not feeling it. But, but, yeah, but, you know, so there was that. It was also the Mission Possible trailer, which, that one. But the thing is about the Mission Impossible is they, they had. And I know Tom Cruise was showing the behind the scenes of the stunt that he was doing on the biplane, and the only. So, you know, we, we talk about films giving too much away, and you, know, I, I'm like, no, why are you. I mean, I understand why he's doing that one. And they always do have some surprise stunts in the film that, that doesn't show up in the trailers. But I was just like, you know, I, I, I was getting some vibes of. I think it was Rogue Nation. It was one of the other films where he was, like, off the side of a plane. but this one definitely, felt definitely a little bit more intimate, given it was a smaller plane. so there was that one. And then, of course, the, the real, you know, the big thing for that night was just, of course, Kendrick's halftime show, which I watched a few times. It's really good. I mean, it's like a blend of, like, you know, it was style over style and substance over just, you know, fluff. And, And also it's just like, it was a master class of, like, how you can put on a show where you're giving a message, but also taking a. Just basically, like, being. Taking another shot at, like, Drake after the whole, like, you know, it's just like. Yeah, yeah. And because they had, like, the bars come up with, like, you know, not like us. And then he, like, nodded out the back a little bit, and then when it came out, and then, like, of course, Serena doing the Crip walk and. And everything about it was just, It was. You know, it's. It's. It's truly. It was truly, like, art as far as, like, a show itself. I mean, you know, it wasn't like, you know, a lot of super bowl halftime shows, you know, like. Or just big spectacles, but this one was, like, truly, like, a work of art. And it's just like, oh, yeah, that's right. Kendrick does have, He is a Pulitzer Prize winning artist, so he put that full on display, for everyone to see. But, yeah, but that. Yeah, so that. Those are. Those are just my quick super bowl thoughts. What's the game?

>> Sarah : Yeah, yeah. I mean, the game did look like it was, a game with the defense, like, going nowhere. But. And. And like I said before, I did watch the halftime show. Did I understand everything? No. No. Have I ever heard any of those songs? Even the whole not like us? no, I've never heard those songs. No, but I do. From a. What?

>> Will: I said, I'm sure you've heard all the Stars, because that wasn't Black Panther.

>> Sarah : Well, well, sure, sure. But, like, yeah, yeah, sure. Thank you for calling me out. But, yeah, in my opinion, I. I.

>> Will: Will say that I'm not like. Yeah, just a little. Yeah. It's not like I have a deep knowledge of Kendrick's catalog either, so I'm not. I'm not calling you out. there are a few songs where I was just like, oh, yeah, this first time I've heard this. That's. That's a bop. Okay. So don't. Don't feel bad.

>> Sarah : I'm sure, like. Like, I. There were some things that were familiar. I guess the. When I say the word heard, I mean, like, actually sat down and listened to and understood what was going on. No, I haven't really heard any of it, and I think Mainly the thing I wanted to just point out or say is that despite all of that from, I could see how it was much more of a story than in Super Ball past, where like use the word spectacle. And I don't know if I, I would even describe it as that. It just felt like a lot of the artists have taken like that moment to do a medley and make it more like what they would do during a concert as opposed to like a different, a different level of performance. Yeah. But, we're gonna get out of this subject because I'm clearly like going nowhere on this. and we're going to go into paradise. Episode five called in the Places of Crowded Kings. the IMDb synopsis. Xavier faces the consequences of his investigation, forcing him to consider how to proceed. Meanwhile, Cal's family history and his last days are examined. And that's the synopsis of the show.

>> Will: Yeah, you know, actually for, for once the IMDb pretty much nailed the episode. I mean there was a lot of depth, you know, packed into that, two, those two sentences there.

>> Sarah : Yeah, yeah. I mean, but you forget all of the IMDb, synopsis that we read for the boys season four. They have some really good synopsis.

>> Will: They did too. They did too. That's a fair point. That's a fair point.

>> Sarah : That's a fair one. And I'm probably just saying that because they were also the shortest synopsis ever. They were like. Yeah, that, that's great. It's in one sentence. You're summing up what happened, but not really. yeah. So what are your thoughts on this episode?

>> Will: Yeah, so I, I was dialed into this particular episode. You know, it really clearly moved a lot of things forward. It answered questions about Cal's last day and. Poor guy, I mean, you know, his last, his, his final days on earth were just, it was, he had a hard go. but, but also it was very interesting too just to see the dynamics between Cal's father, and, and, and, and Cal and, and Bradford and as far as his you know, honesty, his lack of agency, that, you know, but, but, but over the course of the episode, you know, I think we, we definitely see him found, find his footing and everything. So, you know, so from before. So this week was where the Flash, you know, both, I thought both the flashbacks and also the present day stories did complement each other very. And yeah, I just, like I said, it was just really dialed in. And you know, in the use of Byron's you know, poem, there as far as, I can't remember the name of it right now.

>> Sarah : Darkness.

>> Will: Darkness. Yeah. Really, you know, really from the imagery from the. From the. Get with, you know, with the Washington Monument there underwater. And, And then of course, they dial back and. And you know, to the flashback. M. And then of course, at the end, you know, it really answers some questions as far as the cataclysm, but also, raise some more questions about it as well, which I think the, The. The. You know, what. The, you know, in the. In the poem itself being about how, you know, how some unknown force like, you know, blacks out the sun. You know, I thought. I thought that was just a perfect, you know, not only from the visuals, but also just the whole theme of the episode really, just really complemented that.

>> Sarah : Right, right.

>> Sarah : I. I'm sure I've heard this poem in other things, but, Because it sounded familiar, but I, I'm. I don't know it, in any way. But I, I really like the opening and. And I do think that the flashbacks carried this entire episode. mainly because I felt like, first of all, I love seeing James Marsden play. I just. I. I am still mad that they killed. We knew it. We knew it in the first episode when we saw the flashbacks. It was like, how are we going to go through this with Cal being stuck in the flashbacks? It's just so hard. but they. They ultimately carried it because, the story, like James Marston aside, this episode was really about fathers and sons and just the dynamic not just between Cal and his own father, but also Jeremy and him. And that was really done, executed really well because the buildup to the scene in which we do see the last conversation Cal ever had with his father that night, and he was trying to get some resolution in this idea of is his father proud of him, and everything that he's done. And up until that point, we see in the flashbacks, through their different conversations, that his father, even the way he spoke about his son, it was always like. Or him, but also like even Tiger Woods. Like, it was the dad who did a good job, not necessarily the son who actually executed the stuff, the plans of the father, but it was the father who put forward the plans. And therefore, all glory should go to the father, not the son. And then just to have that, juxtaposed with Jeremy and Jeremy's guilt over the conversations he had with his father leading up to his father's death and then being able to have that moment because, Because Cain, is, is dealing with dementia. He. They are able to have this brilliant moment of just. Just a grandfather, and a grandson, but also a father son, where they're both able to say the thing that they wanted. Want to say the most to. Cal. I love that scene. I made the whole entire episode worth it.

>> Will: Yeah.

>> Sarah : Because. Because, I'm going to be honest with you people, this show is somewhat losing me. It's not. It's just that I still see where they're going and I'm not sure I like it. Just like, I don't know if this is right. I don't like it. And so I just. It just bothers me, because they keep. I like.

>> Will: Okay.

>> Sarah : And. And I just, Yeah.

>> Will: Yeah. What. What. What aspect is. Is it losing you? Is it the. The killing off the characters? Is it you feeling that the. The mystery is a bit forced or.

>> Sarah : Well, yeah, mysteries are both forced. I mean, we talked about this a lot last week about Sinatra. Okay. And. And again, in this episode, they're. They're telegraphing, which makes me think it's not Sinatra. But at the same time, I'm like, what are we doing here? Because, like, okay, so Sinatra's behind the death. Like, clearly Presley was there, which I've already figured out. Okay, we'll get into. I, want to get into Presley because, Will, you can believe me or you can not believe me, but I swear, swear to God, as soon as, like, this episode was playing out and when Cain recognized her, I had, like, this moment of, like, going back to when I watched the pilot episode. And I was thinking about during the opening sequence when Xavier comes down to breakfast and Presley's there. There was this weird tension, and I had a moment where I was like, okay, so Presley killed Callum. Like, it's so. So. But I was just like, there's something. And if you remember there in that scene, he mentions, hey, like, why is Ties, Or Jay's bike still out in the lawn and everything? There was a big deal. She rode the bike. She rode the bike there because they were doing the Wii tennis thing.

>> Will: Yeah.

>> Sarah : Remember? Yeah, so I do remember that. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. This is my theory. Like, that's why she was there that night or happened to occur there, because they were doing the. We. Tennis between her. Ah, Billy and, What's her name? Jane. And Jane. So. But also, remember, Billy gets sick, too, because they kept mentioning the soup. So I'm not saying it was Jane who killed California. Not saying that. Don't forget there's another Character. There's a few other service people who are seen in that first episode who could have easily done it as well. But, but, yeah, but somehow in the killing, the safe gets broken into, which I, I bet you it was Cain like Cain broke into the safe because he would be the only one who could. Right, right, right. Well, you know, Jeremy. But no, I don't think.

>> Will: Yeah, yeah, I don't think it was Jeremy. I mean, I guess Kane would be able to get in to the, into the safe because. Let's see. I'm trying to remember. Yeah. Because I know. Yeah. Cause yeah, he would be the one in, in this episode. He did. Now I don't know, was it a, you know, Kane. I don't know if Kane was getting Agent, Robinson, mixed up with Presley or he wasn't.

>> Sarah : Yeah, because he said says it at the end.

>> Will: Yeah, that's right. That's right.

>> Sarah : Yeah. Yeah. Like they, they do, they play it in the they, they do a red herring because they have the sequence which, which honestly, for, for two teenagers who are doing this little romantic dance. I'm actually all right. Jeremy and Presley dynamic. yeah, yeah, I think, I think it's very sweet and I can see how it'll end in a bit of heartache, and tension and everything. But so far it's not, it's not annoying because they're actually treated like, I wouldn't say adults, but they're not treated like 10 year olds either.

>> Will: Exactly. Yeah. I mean, yeah, yeah, they, they have done a good job of writing, writing these, the two, the two characters. I would agree.

>> Sarah : Right, right, right. So, so Grandpa comes in, accidentally interrupts the kiss and then they play it like he's confusing Jeremy for Cal and Presley for Robinson. But then later on when right around the same time that they do the montage and you're like some like Presley has a secret. Secret. He, it dawns on him like. Yeah, I remember her because I saw her that night.

>> Will: Yeah, yeah, that's right. Yeah, I forgot, I forgot the, the little month whenever she's looking under the mattress and, and you know, with that piece. So thanks for reminding me about that, that, that montage there at the end. Yeah, because you're right. I, I, I, Yeah, I think, you know, now that you mentioned it, I guess I did have that like, ah, moment whenever that was. That was going on real time when I was watching it too.

>> Sarah : Yeah, yeah, yeah. And, and I, it, you know, I kept looking back on these past few episodes, there was A part of me was that was thinking about how. Why, like they've been in there for three years, right?

>> Will: Yeah, I guess it's been three, two years.

>> Sarah : They've been in there for a bit. A fair amount. Years we're talking. So. And Jeremy and Presley like are very aware of who each other are. So why was it like that second episode when she just randomly follows him into the library or something like that was another clue indicating like she's also, there. I. Again, I'm not saying personally killed Cal. I don't think that. But she knows something more and I think it might even go beyond just the tablet.

>> Will: Yeah. Yeah, I think. Yeah. I mean, she was clearly somehow some way she. She was able to procure that tablet that night.

>> Sarah : Right. But then if you think about this. Well, yeah, so. So maybe it's just that she found the tablet but didn't witness because it's been a few days, a week at least, if not more. So she, she had to have run into. If she had witnessed someone kill Cal, she. She would have probably ran into that person at this point. Right.

>> Will: Yeah. That's a state. I mean, because the cameras are down. So. Yeah, we do know someone. I guess someone did come into the,

>> Sarah : What I'm saying is that since that night.

>> Will: Yeah.

>> Sarah : What there's been. I guess what I'm trying to articulate is there's been no scene between Presley and someone else.

>> Will: Oh, Gabriella.

>> Sarah : Huh?

>> Will: I said, yeah, you're right. There hasn't been a scene between Presley and somebody else.

>> Sarah : And yeah, that, that has. Or. Or even really indicated that. Oh, like she's afraid of them.

>> Sarah : You know, like.

>> Will: Yeah, that's a good point. Yeah.

>> Sarah : Yeah. This episode. Didn't she. Didn't Jane come over and like while they're exiting the funeral and then Xavier tells, Presley to. I don't know, but I just. I feel like there would have been, bigger signs if like. I guess really what I'm getting at is I don't. She may have found the tablet and she may have been there that night, but I don't think she actually knows who killed Cal because also remember she's spending all this time with Jeremy, who clearly has a lot of guilt. So how are you supposed to make moves on someone when you know who killed your father? Like, that's a bit messed up.

>> Will: Yeah, yeah, no, I completely agree with you. I don't. Yes. You know, whether the assailant actually, you know, in the. In their haste and getting away Dropped the tablet and she was, you know, she found it that night, and just took it back, you know, and hit it. And yeah, you, but you're right, there's no indication at least because she's, she's had interactions with at least all the introduced characters in some form. She's had interactions with everyone at some it. Because at the carnival. Yeah, because at the carnival she, she did. Yeah, she did see Dr. Thabi. So. Yeah. And you know, there was no weird vibe or anything there other than she was like, oh, glad Dad's moving on. You know. So, so, yeah, so, yeah, I mean, we, yeah.

>> Sarah : So the, the, the person who she g. Gave. Who she appeared most afraid of is Cain.

>> Sarah : But then again, we're supposed to believe that it's because he saw her that night.

>> Will: Right.

>> Sarah : And she hasn't told anybody else that she was there and that she has the tablet. But it could also be because in a state, in his mental state, he could have accidentally got into a tussle with, with Cal.

>> Will: Yeah.

>> Sarah : And yeah, like, like I could see that happening as well based off of what was shown in, in this episode. But at the same time we got this freaking Sinatra thing going on, which I just, there's something about it that bothers me because in this episode, Robinson comes up to Xavier and says the DNA from the, from the crime scene never made it to the lab.

>> Will: Yep.

>> Sarah : And I'm just sitting here like, okay. Uh-huh. Like, I'm glad Xavier was like, no, no, this is not, we're not doing this. Okay? You can't come crawl into me now. I don't trust you. Like, even though we both don't trust her, I, that doesn't make me trust you.

>> Will: Exactly. Exactly. And, and I, I, I can see where you're like, feeling, feeling a little like, less enamored with things because, you, because it is, I, I guess the way that they have woven into the store, the story lines as far as Samantha's, you know, you know, treachery or whatever word you want to use as far as, like, you know, keeping the lie. And, and you know, of course now we, you know, we learn on it whenever in this episode with the flashback, we learned that, you know, you know, we get more con, More background as far as Billy being this, you know, the assassin to take out the, the expedition to, you know, to see if people. If there were survivors from the, from the cataclysm. So, you know, so, so I get. For, for me, at least they're they're definitely setting up, you know, characters you should root for. Characters you are like clear, you know, you're supposed to like, not like. And. And then there's like the wild cards, like Tarabi, who, you know, was, you know, where. How is she going to fall down with all this? Because, you know, she was Kyle's therapist. and we, you know, we did see a little bit of that session. Of course, you know, she's hooked up with Xavier. And then of course, you know, she was also Samantha's therapist, so she could, you know, so she's all, you know, she, she's the wild card in all, all of this.

>> Sarah : And so, yeah, I don't, I don't feel like she is. I, I feel like I view her more as a hostage.

>> Sarah : I. There is, there's. There's something about her and what we saw and her whole explanation for what her place is as the architect of social, well, being in paradise, that still, despite that Samantha has her under her thumb. So despite what she knows, she. There's still fearfulness of Samantha. And there's, there's also like. I could say something down, but I'm not.

>> Will: Go ahead, go ahead, go ahead, say it. We're oral friends here.

>> Sarah : I, I don't know if she, if she really wants to go see who else made it alive. Because my opinion, I know Xavier's wife's still alive and that means she can't have her happy ending with. I don't know, there's. There's some weird. I, I've got like. I, I know that, the writers want me to like Dr. Thorabe. I don't like her. I haven't liked her since that whole sex session. I. There, there's something about the way that played off that rubbed me in the wrong way. And I'm like, nope, I can't. She's a pick me girl and I can't get into it. No, well, I've written her off. Samantha. See, I don't find her treacherous. I don't, I don't like the word. To use the words treachery or villainous about her. Even though she killed Billy and she killed those people because she. I think they're doing a good job about making sure we understand her motivations. Because there's a line in this episode and we hear in the recordings that are about that where she says like, no, they have to die or you can't bring this person back with you.

>> Will: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

>> Sarah : Who knows who will follow and most importantly, no one knows. So if people are alive on the surface level, and I never thought about this until this line was said, no one knows where they are.

>> Will: Right.

>> Sarah : Which is huge. Like, so, so they're, so there are, survivors, but it's not like they're, they're looking. They don't even know who to look for for, because their assumption is people are dead. Now, Xavier's wife, on the other hand, she's probably doing her research. She's scientist. Okay.

>> Will: Well, I mean, I think, you know, and we've, and we theorized about this and talked about this before, like, there, there could be other paradises out there, as you know that I don't. You know, this may not be just a. Yeah, you know, they, you know, maybe they, whether Kane and, and, and, And Brett and President Bradford, like, built some redundant centers, like if they couldn't make it to Colorado or, you know, or, you know what the k. Or other governments around the world have their own things because, you know, especially when you think about that, you know, when you think about the conference where, Kyle and, and Sinatra, you know, when they first meet. So. Yeah, so. And you know, and also Kane clearly, you know, Kane is clearly a very, rich man that has a lot of influence. So I can't see, you know, while he was in his good mind, he was probably, you know, he, he probably has some contingency plans for, for other, like, places too, for, for people to go.

>> Sarah : So maybe I, I, I did, like, and I appreciated that they made it clear that technically this wasn't Samantha's idea.

>> Will: Right?

>> Sarah : Yeah, it was Kane. It was Kane's paradise for his family, for his son, Grandson. And I was like, yeah, but now you're in a state of dementia.

>> Will: Yeah.

>> Sarah : Talking about putting the child locks on, there was just something so interesting about that. But he, at the end of the day, he never had a daughter. But I hope we get a backstory, a flashback episode featuring him and his, his relationship that evolves with Samantha.

>> Will: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

>> Sarah : There's a, there's a reason why he chose her. There's a reason why, like, it always felt like he knew her better than even Cal did. So.

>> Will: Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's, that's clear the case. Especially given that, you know, when he, whenever Kyle does go and gets the tablet out and, you know, you know, he realizes he doesn't have the clearance to, like, get to those secret files. But then, you know, then he, you know, I think to your point, they, they, they established that in this episode. That, that Kane and Samantha were, you know, had. Had had this strong relationship there. because, you know, as Kyle was starting to put the pieces together, he was, you know, as he was gaining his agency, he need to go to his dad to like, let me try to see if his palm will open this up. And it clearly did. So.

>> Sarah : Yeah. Yeah, he was smart enough to know that like my, my fingerprint won't work, but my dad's would.

>> Will: Yeah.

>> Sarah : Which is so annoying.

>> Will: well, I think it just really reinforces the, you know, like you were saying at the beginning. It's just.

>> Sarah : Oh, I know why they did it. I wasn't saying like annoying like that way. It was just. Yeah, it's more for. From the character perspective and annoyance of like. Really?

>> Will: Yeah, yeah. And the other thing.

>> Sarah : Oh, go ahead, go ahead.

>> Will: No, I was gonna say another thing too about. With the. With. With Samantha and ordering Billy to. To kill. Kill, her two, things. One, you know, I think it could be a, you know, scarcity of resources because, you know, they did plan this community for 25, 000 people and did get out, did learn about this place then. you know, it goes to my second point which is, you know, when Mikael and Robinson were there in, in bed together and talking, talking about weapons and stuff gets to, you know, again, making sure that they did have, gun. You know, guns and stuff so they could defend themselves if somehow people did find out about it and they had to like fight folks off.

>> Sarah : But yeah, I, I love that lie. You really think all of these people who are like filthy rich like left themselves defenseless down here? It's kind of like, yeah. What kind of Kool Aid was giving back? What kind of delusional stuff do you guys think or have thought for the last three years that was going on? I really like that. You know, so the one other thing that I want to. I want to bring up is, the writing on the number on the cigarette. Because we still don't know because even though we watch it, we still don't know exactly what it is. I'm going to throw out a wild thing, a wild area here right now because the first time that we really look at the cigarette with the number like Xavier examining, it's. There's cut scenes with the, the airport, the airplane hangar and everything. And then we get the flashbacks with his father and being a pilot. Pilot and they go to Air Force One. I wonder if that's the. The then the the call number or whatever for Air Force One.

>> Will: Yeah.

>> Sarah : I mean I think there's something Cal hid on that plane because in this episode they kept flashing back to Jeremy hanging out on what appeared to be Air Force One.

>> Will: Yeah, yeah, he was in. Yeah, he was definitely in Air Force One in the hangar. And you're right, they did cut back to it. And the first time that we do get those whenever Xavier does look at the numbers on the cigarette, and then we see. Yeah. And yeah, I think it definitely is tied to it. I don't know if it's a co. You know, a code to maybe. Maybe the mix the mixtape that that together.

>> Sarah : Right. The mixtape is all of the recordings that was to, to. To release. Release that information and let everyone know about that lie. that we as viewers already know about. I think that's what's really also annoying to me. I don't like we're watching other characters learn about this lie, but we as a viewer already know what it is.

>> Will: Yeah.

>> Sarah : Like as soon as he said sniper, I'm like, oh, I see where this is going. Yep. Yeah, I understand this. Right. I shouldn't.

>> Will: Yeah, yeah. I mean for me it's not, it's not bothering me so much as it is for you, but I understand where you're coming from.

>> Sarah : Yeah. the other number it could be is the flight plane number for the plane that Xavier's wife was like sent m. So and she might have gone onto that plane and as you were saying, might have been sent to not their paradise but a a A different paradise.

>> Will: Yeah. Yeah.

>> Sarah : Point. I don't know.

>> Will: yeah, I'm just trying to think of what else that number because, Because I know, I know Kyle told robust in the code so to where the weapons are stored. So, so it's not that. Because I think that. I think he said it was like a four digit, you know, code or whatever. So I was like, well that rules that out. But you know, but it clearly is whatever. you know, I'm just trying to think of like all the various clues that he, he was trying to leave behind that he was going to share with Jeremy. And and even it was wanting to talk to calm it to Xavier that, that last night. but of course Xavier wasn't in a place still. Their relationship at that point was just so strained that he just wasn't going to be receptive to it.

>> Sarah : Right, right. Well that clue in particular was for. Meant for Xavier.

>> Will: Yeah.

>> Sarah : So. And, and, and arguably we still don't really even understand why the cigarette. Like, that's a very weird. So, so we're gonna get a flashback explaining that more. But. Yeah, all right.

>> Will: Yeah, we'll get a flashback for that. And then the only other thing is, I know they said that Cal, was, it was blunt force. You know, I did, you know, I did have the moment where I was just like, you know, maybe, maybe he did. Maybe by some chance he, you know, since he was, he committed suicide.

>> Sarah : I mean, yes.

>> Will: Is within the realm of possibility. Because the other thing too is. Yeah. The, you know, the, the entrance and stuff to the, to the balcony and stuff was open, but that could have been Presley, like, running out of there.

>> Sarah : Yeah, I've, I've had, I had the same thought at, different points. Even before this episode. I've had that thought when they were talking about the wounds. I'm like, well, it could have just been an accident.

>> Will: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

>> Sarah : And then, but then it's, it's that whole mystery, which, which this is a sad thing about Cal and the whole mystery about the murder. It's like, it's not really about the mystery of who murdered him. It's like, who has the tablet? And now it's what, how, why does, how did Presley get it? Like, how did it escape from the vault, end up? but then again, Cal could have easily taken it out of the vault. I felt like he did have it.

>> Will: Yeah.

>> Sarah : In one of those scenes. And never put it back in.

>> Will: That's, that, that's, that's, you know what I think? Yeah. Because didn't he take it back out when. Because he, because he wrote on the cigarette and stuff. Right. But that was that night that he died.

>> Sarah : Right.

>> Will: So it could have just been out. Out. Anyway. so. Yeah.

>> Sarah : Yeah. All right, well, that is a wrap on paradise, episode five. We will be talking about the next episode next week. and before we go, we're gonna break down three episodes of Invincible. And by Breakdown, I mean just talk very fast about them.

>> Will: Lightning round.

>> Sarah : And will get to start as I try to remember what happened in these episodes.

>> Will: Yeah. So Invincible, season three. I will say that I, it's nice that, that, we didn't, have like a, a long period, between, between seasons this time. But, but also I felt like this. I, I, these first three episodes for me were very entertaining to the place where, you know, we talked about the show being a, a good show to binge and I, I, I had the four. I had to actually, I really got dialed into it again. I think the first episode was really good as far as just sort of. Sort of setting up the setting, up the season. You know, we really. I think you really are exploring in these three episodes. Mark really, trying not only to, you know, keep up, you know, keep himself from becoming, Nolan 2.0, but also, also trying to teach the same lessons to Oliver. And as well, especially as we see Oliver's abilities, really come into fruition, a lot sooner than Mark said. 1. Part of. Part of it is Oliver's, you know, accelerated growth.

>> Sarah : Yeah.

>> Will: But two, But also, you know, it's those. Those teachable moments that, Mark was really, you know, had. Had, you know, before Nolan turned crazy, or just, you know, came, you know, went all his killing sprees and all that kind of stuff. you know, Mark trying to impart those lessons that he, you know, that. That he learned, to Oliver as far as not killing and that kind of thing. And. And Oliver, like, pushing back and be like, well, yeah, but you killed. So. So there's that.

>> Sarah : I am. I am m. So glad that Oliver said that, because I was thinking the same thing. I was like, but you killed. And I think. I think that that is what stood out to me. Well, two things stood out to me in these three episodes. and I'm. I'm glad we waited almost a year to finish watching the. The second season, because I think if we had waited a year to watch the third season, this wouldn't be as relevant. but it was. It was to have that. That. That moment at the end of season two where he. Mark, does make the decision. Like, all the excuses aside, at the end of the day, it was a decision to kill Armstrong. Armstrong, and. And he can still play hero, but at the end of the day, he did murder someone. And so they're coming at it from two different angles. And that I think are working well and that I was not expecting. They're coming at it from the. Oliver who shares, the same DNA, also part vulture mite, and all of that fear of becoming that kind of quote unquote, hero or savior for Earth versus. Versus, Cecilia, who over these three episodes in particular, from. From starting with the first episode, he. He brings back reformed villains to add to the team, which. Which really, oddly enough, Mark is like, no, no, they know these are the bad guys. They've. But Cecil is like, no, they've refused, formed. And you really understand Cecil's whole perspective on. On the. The ability for people to change through that second Episode.

>> Will: Yeah.

>> Sarah : and. And we'll get more into that in a moment. But I think that it's such like to have those two perspectives coincide with Mark trying to figure out his own feelings about his action. it's like. It's like almost you got the devil and the angel on your shoulders from the extent, like, you. You. You want to, You want to tell yourself that you made it, you did the right thing, but so do all of these other people who you beat up and who you kill and who kill. Not kill, but who you throw into jail. So they were trying to do the right thing, too. And. And they can change. Just like you can say, like, I only did that because of this one circumstance. But you still did it. So I don't. I really. I liked how I wasn't. I really liked how that all played out.

>> Will: Agreed. Yeah, I did. I did, too. I think, especially, you know, I'm trying to think if there's anything else in episode one, that, really.

>> Sarah : Go back to it as we think about it. We don't have to like, yeah, yeah, go episode by episode.

>> Will: No, no, no. Yeah, that's fine. Yeah. Yeah. I think, you know, just thinking about really getting a better understanding of Cecil, and. And. And the conflict between Mark and Cecil, because we've. We've seen this tension build up over time.

>> Sarah : Right?

>> Will: and. And. And m. And all, you know, and. Except, you know, these first three episodes, you know, it boils over. I mean, Mark, you know, actually lays hands on Cecil, to the. You know, Cecil. Because he had come in and he, like, you know, had Mark, go to that white room.

>> Sarah : The white room?

>> Will: Yes. Yes. to, you know, because he. He, you know, because one, you know, he. At the end of the day, he was like, yeah, we saw what happened with Nolan, and now we got another one of you. And we've been playing. We. We. You know, we've been planning for this moment. and. And then, of course, please guard. Yeah, yeah.

>> Sarah : It's just like what we were talking about before with Paradise. You think all of these rich people are going to leave themselves defenseless? Like, you think Cecil is going to surround himself with people like, Mark aside, with people who could kill him at any. Like, have, like, outplay him and, like. But leave himself defenseless? Like. No.

>> Will: Yeah, for sure. For sure. But also. But also with the. With the white room and seeing the reanimates, you know, it really gets into the, you know, the larger philosophical debate that, that. That Cecil, you know, Whenever you know, how we see the evolution of Cecil, have that sort, of a very similar worldview as Mark, as far as, you know, these are, bad people. We can't work with them. And then by the end of, you know, by the end of these three episodes, we see why he. He, He. He. He goes the route of. No, we can use these folks, because what was the. I can't remember what was what. What Cecil said exactly. I'm paraphrasing here, but, you can either play hero or you can make,

>> Sarah : You know, essentially, you can be the good guy or you can. Or the guy who saves the world.

>> Will: You can save the world. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You can't be both. Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah. And I, like, you know, and seeing how, you know, we learned Cecil's backstory as far as, like, why. How he, came about having the scars, and it was, you know, not only, you know, not only from, you know, from a story standpoint, but also just from a physical standpoint. you know, he. He had to learn that lesson the hard way.

>> Sarah : Yeah. And about rehabilitation, too.

>> Will: Yeah. Yeah.

>> Sarah : How they put him in jail, and then they're like, we've had so many, few deaths here that we think we can let you out.

>> Will: Yeah.

>> Sarah : I'll admit, I didn't follow everything. Like, I. I don't know what happened. I was watching it, and next thing I know, I look up, and I'm like, when did Cecil go to prison? Like, how did this happen? But I was like, whatever. So I just went along with it. But I. And then they end it with him meeting Nolan. Like, to go through that experience, because what we're seeing in present day is also not just Nolan. Like, make Mark aware that he's not Cecil. Like, they're not. It's. It's Cecil also dealing with his own guilt over letting Nolan in and. And allowing what happened with Nolan to occur. So. So it's like they're both, from their own perspective, still rectifying that whole situation. Like, Mark is like, I'm not my father. And Cecil's like, I'm not gonna let you be your father. So the tension is real. and I just need to get into this third episode cold open, because. Oh, my God. Wow. Yeah. I love it when a show that can. I'm not saying that Invincible feels procedural, but there are some definite procedural elements, especially whenever they bring in the Guardians, that I still. Still could care less about.

>> Will: Yeah.

>> Sarah : But the. When they change their formula and just open an episode. And it's not even like the fact that we are looking at two characters. it's. They. They went for the. We're just gonna do piano and you're just gonna, You're. It's like. It's like a 1920s silent film that is played out. And I thought it was so brilliant because to have that open the third episode and knowing these three episodes play out like leading up to this, they've already dropped these ideas about rehabilitation and Cecil's stance on it versus Mark's opinion about it. And then to watch the cold open of the third episode, I was just like, that's. That's bringing me in as a viewer and also allowing me not only to, to really understand what, what the themes are this season that are unique to previous seasons. As I can, I think at this point with Invincible, like we're in the third season at this point, I'm used to characters suddenly just going in a circle and I feel like oddly enough we're really seeing these. Mark in particular evolve and change for better and for worse, but continue to grow. Like, I don't feel like his growth is stunted. But.

>> Will: Yeah, yeah, no, I think. Yeah, I'm glad you, I'm glad you brought up that. The opening that. I think that was with that cold open with the third episode, that. That is what like really sealed it for me as far as like, okay, this shows moving in a direction that I, That I, That I feel it is a positive one. because I felt that the second, the second season, you know, we, we broke it up. but it, it did feel like, like, you know, I think there were some moments where. And maybe that's why I think why we stepped away from it. It would just seem like it was just sort of going. It didn't really. Things weren't moving ahead much as far as the plot. But this one I feel. Yeah, you know, really like you said, it just really captures the the overarching themes of, of this, of the season so far.

>> Will: And what we're going to see, I think, you know, that. And, and that we're going to see this season, and. And. And using though using that story of those two criminals who try to reform in a desperation and they, they had success and then, and then at the end of the day they, they reverted back to their, You know, what they know.

>> Sarah : But they were like in a way it's not just that they reverted back to it, it's that you saw the. How they were pushed yeah, like. Like the forces were against them. And I think that that's. That's where. Where they, They're taking a very black and white concept and worldview that Mark has, and there's. They're shading the gray and saying, like, it's not that simple. Yeah.

>> Will: Yeah.

>> Sarah : Like, remember when, like, someone broke your mom's arm and then you killed him?

>> Will: Yeah, yeah, that's. Yeah, that's. That's exactly right. That's exactly right. Yeah. Because. Yeah. So. Yeah. So I think that was just the brilliance of it. And that's where I was like, oh, yeah, this. I'm really enjoying this, this season, so far because of. Because of that. And. And then of course, and. And we see that, you know, throughout the rest of the episode as far as, even a. Sort of a callback to season one. Like whenever Mark, You know, when it did. When Cecil like, used the, fail safe in his head. and then once, the, they were able to disable it. But then, you know, Mark went on a spree just like Nolan did, with. With, you know, at least in the first season as Guardians of the Globe. But then here was those reanimates. But it was like, almost beat for beat what happened there. Yeah.

>> Sarah : So you even have, Rex go on his. Like, they keep talking. I thought. I thought you were. You were changing, like, not cursing as much and not being as much of a misogynist and all of like, Like, Like Rex is. Rex is growing on me where I don't. I don't like, like he. He actually played the part that I feel like they've been trying to get him to play, where his comedy actually worked because. Was a humorous reflection of the dramatic story beats that are currently at play. in a bizarre way. And I really like that. And I mean, to your point, like, to have that cold out open featuring adults, like adults to. To bookend it with the. A child out of desperation, out of fear of losing his brother and also just like trying to stop the bad guys. Kills. Kills the bad guys in the end. And that's that moment when they. The Guardians walk in and he. It's just Oliver standing there. And also the blood. And you see that throughout the episode too, where these two characters, who we meet in the beginning are two characters who Oliver and Mark end up facing off against. At one point it looked like they were actually holding their own. And then they realize how young Oliver is.

>> Will: Yeah.

>> Sarah : And it's just like. It's like so, like the humanity that they were able to web into those scenes allowed what they were doing to be much more gray and much more like pointing out the, Kind of the sadness and the loss of innocence, that is at play.

>> Will: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Completely agree. Completely agree. Yeah.

>> Sarah : Why. Why did so. So. So Oliver is gonna go by what name? It's not gonna be Kid Omni Man. And then Mark's now Invincible.

>> Will: I thought that was so funny. It's just like he changed his costume and everybody was like, oh, this. They see him as dismissive as a sidekick.

>> Sarah : Yeah, yeah. And then at the end, they also tease that Angstrom Levy is, is watching and still alive, in the background. Which I'm glad, because I think you brought it up earlier. Season two. I think season two. Worst scheduling of a show I've ever seen and experienced because of the two halves. And that first half we spent so much time building up Angstrom. And then it was just like. Like, we're just like, We were checked out because it was like, oh, what's the point? But I'm glad that, like, I feel like at this point it's kind of worth it because I can understand why without that backstory, him and his whole vendetta, it wouldn't matter as much. And it would also not be. Allow as much reflection, in Mark and his actions, that were. That we're seeing. So. So.

>> Will: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's the other thing too, that, you know. You know, when you were talking about the molded twins and. And even, like, You know, going back to the first episode too, with the, Dr. Sesmic, you know, they. I. I like how they. They bring these villains back and use them in. In appropriate ways. Even, like, even with the cracks, whenever, you know, seismic, like, gives the shot to Eve and. And. And Mark, as far as the sexist tropes and all that kind of stuff, and then she fires back. She's like, you know, he's just old, generic, super. You know, generic super villain. So, you know, I like those little ins. In. In story, like cracks of humor, that, But also that, you know, there are these ongoing characters, you know, resurface in. In this. In this show just to like, you know, basically show again just remind us of, like, the. The. The. The world that Invincible lives in. And, you know, he does have some recurring villains. and it also just reinforces the point too. Like, As far as, like, you know, without. With Oliver was trying to understand, like, why are you letting these Bad guys go all the time. You know, why can't we just. Just kill them? So there's just so many, you know, levels how, you know, Oliver's questions and questioning Mark about good versus evil and good guys versus bad guys. and. And not take, you know, not using these opportunities to stop these bad guys once and for all. and. And Mark just. Again, just having to reflect and. And, you know, and remember the choice that he. That he. That he always makes every time he uses his powers and stopping these folks that know we're not. We're not. No killing. No killing. So, you know, so, you know, so again, it's just. For me, it's just a nice way of this storytelling. with. With this season so far. how. How they. How they've established, you know, these. These elements, you know, come setting up and then. And then, of course, we still have Alan and. And Nolan in the. In the prison. They touched on a little bit, but, you know, they didn't spend too. Too much time on it. and then, of course, you know, and another thing, too, I did like with this. With this. This block of episodes is, Debbie and, you know, moving on with her life and, you know, having a relationship with Will Polk and. But.

>> Sarah : But also like, trying to be a mother to Oliver. I. I, really like that. Thank you for bringing up Debbie, because I really do appreciate. I feel like, she is so much more stronger this season and. Or ever since, the last few episodes of season two where Oliver came into play. And just. I always commend her because of her clear love for Oliver. and just. I like how she's not the evil stepmom. I like how she's not resentful towards him. Like, there's just. There's a beauty in that. and how she's almost trying to get things right with Oliver because she feels like she made some mistakes with how she handled Mark, when he was around that age. So I. I really appreciate that. M. Yeah. Yeah. And we're. We're gonna continue the discussion, not next week. We. We got. We got a tiny little film to talk about next week. So. So we'll be back in two weeks with More Invincible discussion.

>> Will: Yeah, yeah, for sure. For sure. Yeah, I'm looking forward to talking about More Invincible and of course, yeah, we'll be back for paradise next week. And, yeah, that little. That little film, that's dropping this weekend. So, we'll give our takes on Captain America 4.

>> Sarah : Great new world order. I was gonna say Brave New World, but no, it's New World Order.

>> Will: Yeah, they have. They, you know, just like. Just. It's just like the reshoots. They just. I've lost track of, like. What's the subtitle for that damn film?

>> Sarah : Yeah. Yeah. All right. On that note, Will, why don't you tell our listeners where they can find you?

>> Will: Yes, you can find me on all the socials at Will and Polk. W I L L M M P.

>> Sarah : O L K. And you can find me there, too at SJ Belmont M sjblmo B E L M O N T. Please follow our crew on Twitter at Scene N Nerd. Friend is on Blue sky at Scene N Nerd. And, friend us on Facebook. Follow us on Instagram and threads at scene._n_nerd and visit our website, www.scenenerdpodcast.com. but most importantly, rate, follow and comment on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube or wherever your podcast. Good night. Geek out. You're welcome.