The Penguin Finale, Superman and Lois S4 Ep 1-2 reviews, is Denzel joining the MCU and more!

>> Sarah : Greetings, nerds. This is Scene N Nerd. I'm your host, Sarah Belmont, and With me, as always, is our Mr. Producer, Will Polk, how are you doing in tonight.

>> Will: Will, doing very well, Sarah. How are you doing this Tuesday evening?

>> Sarah : It's November, and I was thinking about this recently because, November is the month of feasting, right. And eating because of our lovely Thanksgiving hol. And it's funny because for the past several weeks, all Will has said constantly is, we are sure eating right now, because, man, this content.

>> Will: Yep, we're feasting. Yeah, we're gonna feast tonight.

>> Sarah : Yeah. It's wrapping up, though, in November. It's supposed to be a feast, but.

>> Will: Yeah, yeah, maybe. Maybe. Speaking of, like, feasting and, you know, we are. We are going to be talking about the Penguin. And for the last two weeks now, my. My Panthers have won games. And, And so all season, well, since Bryce Young, who was our quarterback beginning the season, but they got benched, and now he's back. But, you know, with the penguin that we're going to be covering tonight, all this time, I was like, who does Vic, the actor who plays Vic, Rhenzy Feliz, remind me of? And it's Bryce Young.

>> Sarah : Oh, that's.

>> Will: I can't unsee it now when Bryce is doing press conferences or whatever, I'm just like, that's Vic, right? I cannot see it. I cannot see it.

>> Sarah : No, no. Once you see something like that or make a connection, like the poor guy who plays Julie, and I've said this numerous times, I'm just like, you're that character from Sons of Anarchy. I can't unsee it. And I mean, granted, I don't know. We'll talk about Colin Farrell in a bit. But, before we go there, we kind of talked about our show Rundown and some notes, and so they're still on here. So I'm just going to bring it up and we're going to share some quick thoughts. because There was a D23 in Brazil which released a bunch of trailers that I did not watch and Will did because he's a sucker. And. And I did. Now, sometimes. Sometimes what happens is I will be on Twitter or Twitter TikTok, and, I will casually not unmute, but I will see the images flash.

>> Will: No dialogue. But you saw the images.

>> Sarah : Yes, I know what's going on. Boom, boom, fight, fight. Yeah, yeah. Making those poses. Whatever. so. And I'm pretty sure I've watched at least 75% of Thunderbolts trailer.

>> Will: Yeah.

>> Sarah : I, seem to Only manage to get to the same parts and the moment they all start fighting each other, I'm just like. I'm out.

>> Will: Yeah. Yeah. Well, for me, I just felt like it was just like $ah store like the suicide Squad. I'm just. I don't know. I'm just not feeling.

>> Sarah : It is. It is. Except for one. Well, two factors for me. I love me some Florence Pugh. I love me.

>> Will: I don't see you. I don't start. Yeah.

>> Sarah : I love me some Florence Pugh and some Sebastian Stan. So I'm just. I have always been a Florence girl and. And so I will. I will go and. And watch the movie and. And you're. And you'll probably be right.

>> Will: I know. I'm. Yeah. I'm just not feeling it. I just. I'm just not. And I. I mean, I'm sure it's probably fine. It'll probably be good. But, Yeah, it's just like. I just feel like it's derivative of things. But, the other. But of course there was the Captain America for, Trail. The actual trailer, for that. And you know, they really, you know, really fleshed it out. I really. The thing I liked about it was it really felt like it was getting back to that political thriller that, that. That we were promised in Secret Invasion, but that we didn't get. So, And also just the feelings that we. We had with Winter Soldier, with Captain America too. So it feels. I don't know, I just feel. I have a good feeling about this one.

>> Sarah : I am the opposite. It's so funny that we're the opposite on both of these movies because I have a bad feeling about, Cat 4 and it. But don't get me wrong, it's not like I have a great feeling about Thunderbolts. I am very well aware and I'm, Essentially, what I'm saying about Thunderbolts, I'm taking it for what it is and just going to watch some actors I really enjoy have some fun.

>> Will: That's true. Yeah.

>> Sarah : So. So. And the same can be said for Cat 4 because I love me some Antony Mackie especially. I love when he's on tour for movies. He's great.

>> Will: Yeah, he is.

>> Sarah : He is. Knows how to do an interview. And I love how much. How much of a hard time he gives Tom Holland. So I just. There's just something about all of the conversations pertaining to the reshoots.

>> Will: Yeah.

>> Sarah : And where. Where that's. What is the seed of my doubt. But I mean, I think we both are on the side of also Cap, Captain America or Falcon. And Winter Soldier was not a bad Disney show. Like, if you're looking at everything, it's actually a fairly decent one.

>> Will: Yeah.

>> Sarah : So I. My doubt doesn't come from, like, continuing that story. It's more just some of the financial decisions and stuff where I'm just like, well, they reshot and they had a time. I don't. I don't know. Because reshoots never bode well for movies. but, you know, things can happen, basically.

>> Will: For sure. For sure. Yeah. But, yeah, those were some of the big. Those are the things. And of course, Feige, got on stage, talked about. I guess he. Well, I don't know if he got. Well, he had an interview with a, local publication down in Brazil, and it went through a bunch of different topics. Of course, he mentioned Blade, that, they're committed. Still committed to it.

>> Sarah : sure. That's what they say.

>> Will: That's what they all say. Exactly. teased Wanda Scarlet Witch, you know, didn't say that she's coming back, but he just said how and when she's going to come back. So, you know, so.

>> Sarah : Yeah, I heard the theories, and it makes me excited.

>> Will: Yeah. Yeah. So there's that. and then, of course, Miles Morales will be. Yep. That was another thing. Of course. of course. But we still probably won't get beyond the spider verse until probably 2027 at this rate. But, But after that, spaghetti did say about it. Huh?

>> Sarah : I forgot about beyond the spider.

>> Will: Yeah. Yeah. Supposed to be coming out in February. Yeah, I know. Not for two years, maybe.

>> Sarah : I'm pretty sure I was also the one who told you something like this was gonna happen. But I also, forgot this past year that that was even a thing that I was still waiting for.

>> Will: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I know. I know. But. But there's something, you know, on the bright side, I guess we know we'll get miles eventually in live action. You know, we'll. You know, by that point, we'll all.

>> Sarah : You know, somebody explain this to me.

>> Will: Yeah.

>> Sarah : because. Okay, I just saw on our rundown, you have, like, the highlights of the Disney sizzle reel. I didn't really watch it. Okay, guys. But I did randomly see. And I'm like, wait a second. Is that the bear?

>> Will: Yep.

>> Sarah : Why? Why is the bear being shown in a Disney plus sizzle reel?

>> Will: Season four, June 2025.

>> Sarah : Yeah, but. No, no, no, no. Yeah, why is it being shown in Disney plus?

>> Will: Remember, Disney plus and Hulu are the Same service now.

>> Sarah : Okay, see, that's what I was thinking.

>> Will: Yeah.

>> Sarah : I wasn't 100% sure. Okay.

>> Will: Yeah, they got. Yeah, it's the bundled service now.

>> Sarah : Yeah, still very weird.

>> Will: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Speaking of sizzle reels and. Well, go ahead. And you know, this other thing that a lot of people probably already heard about the X Men comment, with. With, Disney, with Marvel from D23. But you know, speaking of sizzle. Yeah. Andor had, was. Had some scenes from the, upcoming season which is coming in April 22nd of next year, which we did get also get that information at D23 this past weekend in Brazil. but yeah, I mean I, I am. Andor is coming and I'm all there for it. I mean, we got the Thai Interceptor that, that looks like a prototype. we had K. K. so, Cassie destroyed. I mean the scene there with probably the massacre of, I can't remember the name of the planet now, but they referenced it in Star Wars Rebels. So I mean it's just like, I'm just so there for that show.

>> Sarah : The first half of 2024 is looking very bright.

>> Will: Yeah.

>> Sarah : Okay. Like this. yeah. Thank you for correcting me. 25. The feast that will continue through the first part of 2025. Man, I don't know if the second half can match it.

>> Will: It's going to be tough.

>> Sarah : It's going to be tough.

>> Will: Yeah.

>> Sarah : I don't know. But granted granite, because, you know, I love to be a rain cloud. I do have to admit this year I thought I was going to do some feasting and everyone knows I've been pretty much like, So that happened.

>> Will: As we joke, last week after we were finished recording. It's just like, you know, the last two months has been. It's made up for, for you at least. I hope you definitely have had a good. Some good meals the last two months.

>> Sarah : Yeah, I've enjoyed it a little bit more, especially our conversations, because we've been kind of more on the same page than on other stuff. But at the same time, I don't, I don't know, if it made up for the onslaught that occurred. But, yeah, and, and they're looking good. Love, me some Diego Luna. the information about how it'll be span across 12 years.

>> Will: Yeah. Yeah.

>> Sarah : Every. Every three episodes is four years. That's fascinating. structure of a season that I'm, I'm curious about. And, and yeah, we got what if season three coming over break. We'll tackle that at the top of 20, 25. And then on top of all this, like, we have to have some sort of casting announcement. Slash, slash, like, who he's gonna play. because Denzel Washington is right now doing a press tour for a little old film called Gladiator 2. The ruining of my childhood memories with Gladiator, as I like to call it. and it has been announced that he is, set to be a part of Black Panther 3. No one knows role. Is there speculation? I mean, I know that there's speculation, but Will usually tells me, like, good speculation.

>> Will: Not the Kang of it all, for sure.

>> Sarah : Well, thank God for that.

>> Will: Yeah. Nah. But, yeah, that was. I saw that this morning, I guess. Yeah, he was in, I guess on the Today show in Australia, and I guess he just forgot that these things kind of, you know, things like this can. Will go viral, like, no matter where in the world you, like, say it. and so, yeah, he, he dropped that little nugget. Also, the fact that he, he was, you know, I'll just read the quote. And he said a quote. At this point in my career, only interested in working with the best. I don't know how many more films I'm going to make. Probably not that many. I want to do things that I haven't done. I played Othello at 22. I'm not going to play it at 70. After that, I'm playing Hannibal. After that, I've been talking with Steve McQueen about a film. Then he added, after that, Ryan Coogler is writing a part for me, the next Black Panther. After that, I'm going to do the film Othello and I'm going to do King Lear. After that, I'm going to retire. End quote. So that's exactly. That's from Denzel's mouth in that interview. And, yeah. And who he's going to play, I have no idea. But I'm just excited. You know, it's one of those things that fan, Fan casting has been happening for years about getting Denzel in the mcu. And, you know, I'm all there for it. I mean, we've had Antony Hopkins, we've had Robert Redford, we've had at this point, you know who, you know, at this point, Leonardo DiCaprio could show up for all I know.

>> Sarah : no, we don't need him. We don't.

>> Will: We don't need Leo. But. No, but as far as, like our, you know, the best of our best thespians in our, in our Modern age. I mean, you know, Denzel's, you know, one of the best. So, you know, we're getting them.

>> Sarah : Yeah, yeah, yeah. oh, and then there is a PeaceMaker teaser, too. 2025. Another thing I, I just. The images.

>> Will: That's all you needed to see.

>> Sarah : That's all I needed. Hey. Hey. I'm also the person who was suckered enough to go and see Joker 2 in theaters that somebody on this call hasn't gone and Scene it.

>> Will: Yeah, I'll probably get around to it at some point, but, Yeah, at some point. But the other thing that did drop this, as us, we were in our pre show, we were talking like, it seemed like nothing was going on. I know there was this other little thing going on that I don't want to get into because, you know, you get all. Everyone. It may make some people happy and make some people depressed, but, there was the Mission Impossible Final Reckoning trailer also dropped. Yeah. And, Tom Cruise again, is our. Probably our last, like, you know, we were talking about Denzel being that, you know, one of the best of the best. Tom Cruise is definitely one of the. Probably our last true action hero. that, that, that quote at the end of the. Of the, trailer was just like, you know, need. Do you to trust me one last time, Tom? I do.

>> Sarah : I don't know. Vin Diesel with Fast and Furious seems to give Tom a run for his money.

>> Will: No, no, they're different classes. They're different classes. I don't know.

>> Sarah : I don't know. I mean, I agree, but I also. It's so funny to hear him. I understand why. Trust me. I do. I get it. Even though I don't watch those movies because I'm not an action movie. Kind of girly, but. So I equate Tom Cruise to his other stuff. Like he's a. He's Jerry Maguire to me.

>> Will: Yeah.

>> Sarah : Yeah.

>> Will: Or he's. He's Maverick to many people. Yeah.

>> Sarah : or Maverick. I mean, it's a classic. I don't know why. I don't really equate Maverick or. Or a Top Gun to be in an action movie. I know why it should be, but I just. For some reason I don't. Probably because the Dr. Green from ER is also in it. Yeah. So. Yeah. Anyways. Anyways. No, Will, I'm very happy for you and that you can continue your love affair with Tom M. Cruise this summer as well. I know you've missed him this summer.

>> Will: I. I did.

>> Sarah : Really.

>> Will: I. I enjoyed the Dead Reckoning part. Well, they don't call it part one anymore. But I did, I did enjoy, I did enjoy. I mean, I enjoyed the Mission Impossible franchise. And that was cool thing about that trailer they just had. You know, they have woven such a tapestry of. With this, with Ethan Hunt and his story. So, so I, I'm all there for the final reckoning because I think it's definitely gonna. It will definitely be, ah, an exciting finish. And that's all I have to say about that.

>> Sarah : all right, well, that leads us into a five minute conversation about Superman and Lois. yes, we watched. We finally started the last season of Superman and Lois, with episodes one and two, Episode one, the end and the beginning, as, Superman is locked in a brutal battle with, Doomsday. Lois and the boys race against time to save General Lane. And episode two, a world without Lana and Sarah joined the fight against Luther, who starts making moves in Smallville. Jordan Jonathan buttheads over. Important decision. So it's, it's funny this. I, cannot say that I missed this show. I also, It just. I'm glad I watched this before I watched the Penguin season finale because if I had done the reverse, who knows what I would be saying about this show. but it's, it's, it's so. It is, it is a little fascinating to watch something that is so grounded in the Arrowverse and, how the shows used to be and now what they've evolved into. As we look at the Penguin and Agatha all along, and it's like, okay, I get it. So the genre has kind of almost outgrown the more procedural type of thing and also the more outgrown the primary focus on the heroes. that being said, the woman who plays, I think her name is Betsy. Betsy. Yeah, yeah, yeah. She, she as Lois is always good. The Lois character is just written in such a strong way, that I think should just be applauded. And, I still miss the original Jonathan. There's stuff like. Even though it's been a while since I've watched Superman and Lois, as soon as it started I was like, this is not the original Jonathan. I just. The casting changes like that always throw me with TV shows and I. And it's, it's, it's hard to overcome it. And I think very few shows can and have.

>> Will: Yeah.

>> Sarah : and simultaneously. I just, I think that the, it was interesting, but I also am like, well, is he really dead?

>> Will: Yeah, well, and that's fair, that's fair. Because, I mean, this is Their. This is their take on death, Death of Superman, which we've Scene that done. Let's see. We saw it in the Snyderverse. We, you know, we've, And, as far as. And I think, I think there's been a few animated versions of it as well. So, I mean, it's, you know, obviously the first time it was. The story came out was in back in 93. I remember when I was in college and like, the comic book came out. You could not get a copy of that of. Of the first run of, Death of Superman, which, you know, and so we've Scene about, you know, we've Scene Superman and Doomsday fight before and all that kind of stuff. So. Yeah, I mean, I hear what you're saying. I mean, it's, you know, for a TV budget, you know, I thought it was a pretty good fight. I mean, they did well with it and. And I like the way they interspersed the fight throughout the episode. But I've completely 100 agree with what you said about Bitital again and her. Lois. I mean, Lois is like the heart of the show. and really, you know, another thing too is, you know, they kept the continuity and because, you know, the events of the first episode are, you know, picks right up from where we were with the end of season three. You know, she's still recovering from cancer. She was, you know, even referencing if she's going to go in and get her reconstruction surgery and all that kind of stuff. So, you know, so she's dealing with all this. And then, of course, you know, we got Bizarro Doomsday, which is, again, they did, you know, they've taken some. Well, what I do like about this show is they do take well established stories and lore and make it their own. and so I think that's one of the pluses about the show especially.

>> Sarah : what was interesting with these two episodes is I just kept watching, and talking about like, not just iconic storylines, but characters. And so that brings us to Lex, because Michael Cudlitz, he is just eating, during these two episodes. And it's also the way his character is written. I knew I recognized him from the Walking Dead.

>> Will: Yep.

>> Sarah : That is so different because, yeah, he's a businessman and you have what's her face. and there's that awkward, weird moment between them where it's like, I've always wondered what it would be like for you to be free. But she's also a girl boss. And, But anyway, I especially noticed when it was him and I think Amanda in the bar, and they were. They were drinking, and he's. He's clearly fresh out of prison.

>> Will: Yeah.

>> Sarah : And that's just. There's. I can appreciate how even, like, this is a version of Lex we've never really Scene.

>> Will: Yeah.

>> Sarah : And, it just. There's something very raw and honestly, a bit more menacing than the guy in the suit that we're so used to. To scene, paraded around. And so I really appreciated that. I especially just loved it when Jordan tried to confront him. I think it was in the first episode. it's not at the end of the second episode. I'm talking about the first confrontation between him and the look on Lex's face, because it wasn't. He wasn't happy. He. He also didn't give it away that he was putting the pieces together real quickly. But you could also tell in the performance in his eyes that he was putting together the pieces. And thank God for that, because the moment that scene happened, I said to myself, I swear, if Lex doesn't walk out of there thinking that that is definitely Superman's son and Lois's son, I don't know what to do. My suspension of disbelief can only be suspended. so. But I was. I was so happy they made him also not only different and unique, but a smart Lex Luthor, because that's what we need. We need smart characters. And it doesn't matter if the budget is cheaper, it doesn't matter if the CGI is not that great, if the characters are smart, then. Then it's. It's. It makes it for a more compelling story no matter what. regular procedural they have to work around.

>> Will: Yeah, yeah. And I think that's to your point. I mean, I think even though this show still has the vestiges, you know, even. Even when the reverse was on his remaining days, you know, they were already. You know, this. We. We've talked about this with the show in the earlier seasons, how it. On the one hand, it was like, yeah, it still had. You know, I still had that cw, but. But on the other hand, it felt like it was also still out of place where. Where it would have fit better on, like, whenever DC had their streaming platform or. Or even, like, you know, or Max as far as a series. Because it was. It was that. It was that. It's sort of that tweener show, like you said, with the evolution of that far. Yeah, well, no, I think it is. I think it is. I mean, I do. It's not. I mean, Penguin we'll get into in a little bit. I mean, that's just next level. I mean, that's like master class. Agatha. this past season also, that, you know, over, you know, it's. It's that next level as far as shows. And then we've got a lot of things that, you know, have been very hard to watch over the last few years. Superman and Lois, I think, has been very consistent. It's been better than some. It's been better than some of the other, you know, the Arrowverse shows, especially towards those end runs.

>> Sarah : I mean, I, I agree. I think it's also, though, there's a little bit of recency bias. I mean, this is its fourth season and, And let me tell you, see, what I remember about Superman Lois is the most recent season, which wasn't the best season. The best season of Superman Lois is the first season. And then because the first season has an iconic episode, talking about the miscarriage episode. But then the second season, it kind of gets a little loopy towards the end especially. And then by the third season, it's just like, what. But I feel like this season, knowing that it's the last season, clearly written with that understanding.

>> Will: Yeah, true.

>> Sarah : I think it's coming full circle and I could potentially deliver something on par with the first season. So.

>> Will: Good point.

>> Sarah : Which I'm excited for.

>> Will: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, and also, I think given that they did. To your point about knowing that it is the final season, and the way, you know, they only have 10 episodes and I know we're. We're starting a month in, so I think the way it's written, you know, given that they are doing their take on Death of Superman, you know, episode two starts with, you know, the sentence, well ended episode one. And, you know, going to episode two does start with the scene from the comic book. You know, as far as, you know, Clark being held there, by. By doomsday. But the, you know, but they, they do. They do sort of, you know, put them in a suspension animated tank or whatever and, you know, to sort of set the stage for like, okay, we're, you know, since we don't have 20 episodes we're in or another season. We can't drag this. We can't drag heart being gone too long, out too long. And I haven't watched a single episode. It really was for this weekend, was the first time I watched any of the series since his air this year. so I think they're, you know, Bringing a little. They're. They're showing they're having a death, you know, but they're not going to do it. Like it was done in the comics where we had like Android Superman, we had Superboy clone, we had all these other things. I think they're, again, they're putting their own spin on it. You know, we did get the Brainiac name drop. And of course Tom Kavanaugh is going to be showing up in the series, this final season. So most likely he's Brainiac. and, and you know, the other thing too, like with the second episode, whenever they like crushed Superman's heart and you know, again showing Jordan's, you know, impulsiveness and stuff. And to that point, as you were saying, Lex is very menacing. I mean those. All the things that he was doing in this, in this series, so far, you know, definitely is Alex with an ax to grind because, you know, he's lost 17 years of his life and he feels like that Lois in particular cost him his relationship with his daughter. So, I mean, it's. Those motivations there definitely give us a, you know, a legs that we're not used to seeing in, in live action. So, yeah, I mean, I think you're right. I mean, it does have a potential to, to be like that first season as far as going out on a strong note.

>> Sarah : Yeah, yeah. Too bad they can't get bring back original Johnson. the kid is doing fine.

>> Will: Yeah. Yeah. Michael Bishop's hanging in there, but it.

>> Sarah : Is very noticeable how, how he's not given a lot. anyways, so that leads us to the Penguin, season finale, episode eight. Great or little thing. So I'm just, I'm going to start off with a little. Some nitpicks and, as well as somewhat, of my overall thought the first half of this episode. And I'm talking from beginning through the, mother son therapy session. Tied to a care, tied to chairs, held hostage by a psychopath. that one by Sophia. brilliant. Fully engrossed, fully engaged. Loved it. Edge of my feet. After we get out of that scene, though, I'm not going to lie, my mind starts to think and suddenly I am, more thinking about, okay, well that happens. So that means this will happen. So that means that. And why is it taking so long for this show to end or this episode to end? And I don't, I don't know. I don't get me wrong, I loved it. It's a great piece of television. Very strong ending. I just get a Little annoyed with all that. Oh, my God. It was so shocking. Was it? Was it. Were you paying attention? They told you exactly what was going to happen about halfway through the episode. Okay, so. And. And then the fact that. Oh, it's so shocking. When Vic died, was it because for some reason, as soon as Vic said, you're my family, I was like, bye, bye. You're going to.

>> Will: Same. Same.

>> Sarah : And also, I'm. I'm. I know we have. We've talked about this. Will is very well aware that I'm dead inside. So. Do I hate Penguin? No, I don't hate him. Because I've also never really, like, I don't stay, like, in throughout this season. It's not that I'm rooting for the Penguin, though. I'm just watching a story unfold. I'm not, like, I'm technically not rooting for anyone.

>> Will: No, not at all. Not at all.

>> Sarah : I'm just, like, living in this world, being told this story. Like, I just. Sometimes I question, like, are we watching the same thing? You know, And I think that's why sometimes I come off a bit more negative about things. It's just because I'm like, Okay, I'm tired of hearing people say this because I don't think it's 100% true. But I will say, that by him killing Vic, it proved, okay, without a doubt, this was not the Gotham version of Breaking Bad. No, no, no, Because Walt never killed Jess. Okay. Okay. This is not what that is. This is Sopranos. This is a mobster. This is Godfather. Okay? This is Yabu Shige. Okay. I, don't care. But. All right, well, your. Your. Your thoughts.

>> Will: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I completely. Yeah, you're right. I mean, I. I agree with what you said. I mean, even Sunday night after, you know, we were, We were messaging after the show was over, and I agree. I was like, you know, I saw. I saw the. I saw Vic's death coming. M. What worked for me. It. It was the shock of. It wasn't so much that he killed Vic. I think it was just. It was the. It was just the way it was so well executed that I was just like. I knew it was coming, but even when it happened and the look on, that Colin Farrell that. That Oz had on his face after it was done, that just. I. I don't know, it was like. I don't even know what. What the hell that. What adjective to describe it, but it was just, you know, if you've watched episode, you know, What I'm talking about. And that was like, holy. I was like, I was like, holy. He, you know, he did this to Vic. And I guess for me, I mean, like, as I was joking at the beginning of the episode, I was like, yeah, I see Bryce junk. It's like Vic now. But, but no, but seriously though, I think, I think what this show, what this series did was because of all these characters that as you noted, there were no heroes in this show. and anyone who would like thought of Oz or Sophia as anti hero or anything like that. No, she's a psychopath, he's a sociopath. I mean, and they will kill you for again. like, you know, because whenever he killed Vic, it was just like you said it. I mean, he. When Vic said he was family, Penguin saw that as a weakness. And that was like, I gotta take him out. And then the other thing too, that was really, you know, I thought, as I thought back on the series and like, you know, as, you know, Vic was looked up to odds as a mentor and Oz, you know, took him under his wing and then he took the. The thing that reminded me, the thing that like stuck. Stood out to me with that scene. I think that really like just sealed it for me was when he took the ID card out and threw it into the river.

>> Will: And I thought back to the line where they were like when Oz and Vic were talking and they're gonna be talking about our names forever.

>> Will: And then he just. But, you know, but because he saw Vic as a liability, he just threw him away just like he did that card. And I just, like, it just really, just really captures who this man is in that. Well, many things captured it, but that was just like symbolically at the end there that just still, you know, just reminded us who this man is. So. Yeah, I agree with you. It wasn't, it was not a shock. it would actually, it would have been a shock if he actually lived, to be honest, given what we, what we have built up to, what we've Scene over the last eight episodes with this character.

>> Sarah : Right, right. so I will be honest. I did watch the episode, but I don't remember Penguin's face the way you did. I don't, I don't. but I think that the standout moment of Colin's performance in this episode was not that scene, but it was the scene when, Sophia reveals that his mom has known all along that he killed his brothers. And why that. That moment was just because he just was staring and I immediately thought to myself, see, this is. This is why this is such a good performance. I don't know who's a better actor, Penguin or Colin Farrell. The commitment to the lie is making doubt. Well, was it a lie? I don't know. I don't have best. Like, did that happen? We're told things happen, but sometimes you can have an unreliable narrator. So what, like, was. Were we shown that from her perspective? Like, what is going on here?

>> Will: And,

>> Sarah : And it's like for. For those moments, for some reason that that's the face that to me the most. and showed that character how it is. maybe, maybe during, I was like, oh, he's strangling him and I got up or something. I don't think I got up, but I understand.

>> Will: Yeah, no, no, but you're right. I mean, that was another one. I mean there's just so many like. I mean throughout this whole season there's been so many moments like that where it's like. Yeah.

>> Sarah : And I think like, really reflecting on this episode in the season, I think why the first half worked so much for me, it's because my love for the actress who plays Oz's, mom, Frances, her performance, I mean, everyone's talking about, Sophia, everyone's talking about her, but Frances and like, it was so good because. And, and yeah, they were both like, we observed the most bizarre torture scene ever to occur where it's like a villain has your deepest, darkest secrets and are going to use them to turn the one you love against the most. And to unbury this because it was such a good cold open to come off of last week's episode and to suddenly, start to get Frances's perspective on aftermath of her two boys dying, in the Gotham gutters and the realization that her other son was the cause and oh my God. kind of makes her illness, like, did that start because of this trauma? Because my God, that would. And then you have a great conversation with Ricks. We can. Rex, we can rule him out as being the father. he's always been a stand in. And I like that moment. You brought it up before, like Vic. Oz filled a, father figure role for Vic. And Rex mentions that to Frances, like, he doesn't want people who want power. And I think maybe that's also why that Oz knew if he continued to nurture, nurture, ah, Vic, in a way, Vic will turn on him.

>> Will: Yeah.

>> Sarah : So it wasn't. It was like the vulnerability is one thing, but it's also Like, Vic and Lou got all of these lieutenants to turn on their bosses.

>> Will: Yeah, yeah.

>> Sarah : So why would Oz be any different? Like, exactly. Continue. So, yeah, so it was a very smart move in the long run. But anyway. And then. But. And you explain that through this m. This monologue of Rex about, like, how he gets his crew together and it's that missing father, but in Oz's case, like, Francis can do that and. Oh, man. Well, if you can't do it, then what if you just let him go?

>> Will: Yeah.

>> Sarah : Because I don't have kids, and I also don't have psychopaths for kids. Not even Will can relate to this.

>> Will: Nope, I can't.

>> Sarah : But, my God, the emotional turmoil. To do that to a person, to be like, I just lost two kids at the hands of one kid who loves me, but now I'm resentful for, obvious reasons. It's just. Oh, my God. I just. I can't talk enough about that whole. That whole. This whole storyline has been played out so fascinating. and so well done that I really liked how we saw so much from Frances perspective. And then probably why I think the second half of the episode is weaker is because she had a stroke and is a vegetable.

>> Will: Yeah. Yeah. But. Yeah, yeah, you're right. I mean, I don't know if it's weaker, but it definitely. I mean.

>> Sarah : Oh, yeah. That's my opinion. So.

>> Will: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I. The only place where I felt like it was, for me, where it felt weak was, when Sophia, started, you know, burning out the house and that kind of stuff. That was. That was the. If I had a nitpick, I was kind of like, okay, here we go again. Because,

>> Sarah : So, like, I'm sorry. I knew it was going to be a double cross. Like. Like, there's no way in hell. And then I never thought that he was gonna kill because he. He told us what he was gonna do with Sophia, when he was talking to the councilman. Okay.

>> Will: Yep. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, that was. Not yet. That was like, you know, that's because, you know, again, it has been. You know, it's been a through line throughout this whole series. How. And you break. And you brought up a good point with, like, with Vic and Link, and why odds killed Vic. I mean, the third line is, you know, the upper class always underestimates us, you know, and. And ignores us. So, you know, so him doing that, you know, the crook knows a crook. So he's like, okay, let me find the crooked councilman. I could Use to leverage, you know, to get my. To take Sophia off the board. And that's what he did.

>> Sarah : Didn't we already meet this councilman? Like he already has stuff on him.

>> Will: Yeah, yeah.

>> Sarah : Now he's just like kind of continuing to crane that door open. And also we've Scene earlier in previous episodes how no matter the hand that is dealt, Oz takes a moment, reassesses and changes the way to manipulate the situation in his favor. And that's what he did. He was given that amount of time to do that. and the moment he said, like, like, you're gonna find Sophia's car down there. I'm like, brilliant, Brilliant.

>> Will: Yeah, yeah, yeah. When it was. When it. What happened? And they were. We drove her when he, you know, had the. Driving her out there, taking her for m. A ride. And then. And it's how it's. I, just. I did clap off, like, even though like you said, he told. We were told that this was going to happen. But again, I think what made it so effective was just execution of it.

>> Sarah : Right, right. And I can appreciate and understand how Sophia, it was clear to me, Sophia didn't understand. Like, to me the biggest wink and nod was the moment he says, you're going to hell, sweetheart.

>> Will: Yep.

>> Sarah : Because, Because death isn't hell for her. Death would be freeing her. Hell is putting her back. And so that, that leads me to something that I don't think enough people are talking about because people are so focused on. On the fact that Oz kills Vic. Right.

>> Sarah : And he kills Sal and he kills his brothers. There's a trend here.

>> Will: Yeah.

>> Sarah : He kills a lot of men.

>> Will: Yep.

>> Sarah : It's fascinating that the women who are perceivably closest to him. I'm talking Eve, Carlo, I'm talking his mom, I'm talking Sophia.

>> Will: Yep.

>> Sarah : They don't die.

>> Will: They don't die. That's a good.

>> Sarah : But they do get punished.

>> Will: Yeah.

>> Sarah : Even Eve, because there's no way she has. She's repenting right now. And the moment I saw her, I was just like, oh, oh my God.

>> Will: Yeah.

>> Sarah : I'm so sorry for you. And then, and then it gets worse because then he. He asked her to say things. And the moment he says, ma, you're proud. I'm like, oh, this is the worst kind of role play ever.

>> Will: Yeah.

>> Sarah : Ah, gross.

>> Will: Yeah. The Thorian things that are going on there. Yeah, we talked about that.

>> Sarah : But it's. It's also. And it's something like the complexity that they managed to develop for Oz, over the course of these eight episodes, it's just all encaptured for me. The moment we see his mom in the penthouse looking out over Gotham, unable to move like clear vegetable. And he comes over, he says he's being very odds. She can't say anything, she can't move. And it's like. And he says it's exactly, this is exactly what you wanted, and kisses her on the cheek and goes, All that plays in my mind is that scene early on where she's like, if my mind goes before my body, you best put me down. Now it's complex because on one hand, in that moment, you like the earlier scene, you view him as a son who loves his mom and he can't put her down because she's not a dog. I'll never forget that line.

>> Will: Yep.

>> Sarah : But simultaneously, you've just watched this man kill his apprentice. You've, you've Scene him burn people alive. You've Scene him do, horrible shit and kill, his own brothers.

>> Will: Yeah.

>> Sarah : And also, you know, he knows she knew he killed his brothers. And on top of that, plotted to potentially kill him with maximum.

>> Sarah : Punishment.

>> Will: Yep.

>> Sarah : You don't get to go until I say you can.

>> Will: Exactly.

>> Sarah : Oh my God.

>> Will: Yes. Fucking classic narcissist. Yeah.

>> Sarah : Oh, geez. Because they, they managed to show all the angles of that and all can be true. And all are true for all.

>> Sarah : Fascinating.

>> Will: Totally fascinating. And you're so spot on. It's all about you.

>> Sarah : Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, I mean, we watched so many paternal shows. This is a maternal show, but at the same time it's like, is it because you, Sophia, who deals so much, has so much shit from her father. I mean, the whole Hangman episode is just, is all about men suppressing women. So again, they're able to view these kind of things through so many different angles that it's a very balanced show.

>> Will: It is a balanced show. And like you said, if anybody was like, rooting for this 4oz in this show, I mean, we're watching two different. You're watching something else and you're not. You're missing the entire subtext and sometimes subtext and sometimes very, very open things. Like you just, what you just shared, with, with Oz and his mom, that was going on in his show. I mean, there's just nothing likable or redeemable about this man really, at all.

>> Sarah : And nor should there be. Yeah, but it's, it's weird though, because like, like I just said, you're not a Dog, I can't put you down. Like, you're my ma. Like, there are these moments of humanity that we have been privileged to see that I think is hard to reconcile with the monster. And I think the purpose is really to put us almost pretty much in Francis shoes.

>> Will: Yeah.

>> Sarah : Being like, this is my son, and I see, like, he's. He's my son. I see the good nature in him, but, to reconcile that with all the bad stuff. And I don't know how you go into the finale rooting for Oz or liking Oz. He killed his brothers.

>> Will: Yeah.

>> Sarah : How do you go from last week? Still on that trip or.

>> Will: Maybe. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, maybe liking is too strong a word, but, I mean, you just, you know, but. But, Yeah, I mean, I. I think.

>> Sarah : I mean, I think like him.

>> Will: Yeah.

>> Sarah : But you also recognize him for what he is, because at the same time, you're also thinking underneath all that makeup and prosthetics, that's calling freaking feral. Just killing it.

>> Will: It's killing it. Yeah. Getting man in me already. I mean, it just like, you know, everybody. Just about everyone in this show, you know, we. We will see when Emmy nominations roll around, either lead actor, lead actress, supporting actor, supporting actress. Because there were just some phenomenal performances that, that we were able to see with. With this. With this series. And. And who knows? I mean, you know, they. Colin Farrell has left open. I mean, we do know that. That this character will show up in Batman 2 and 3. he did confirm that. And, And we. And they did open. Leave open the door that they could. They could possibly do a season two if the writing is there. I mean, if they bring. Especially if they bring Lauren Lafront back. I mean, everybody talks about Matt Reeves. Lauren Lafront was the showrunner for this show, speaking of giving women credit. And, And she just. She just killed it. I mean, she. It was just. Let's give props for props to. Yes, it's Matt Reeves's world, but he handed it, this world over to her, and he. And she set up a. A. A formidable character. For now, when we go to Batman 2 and 3, we, we, you know, they've taken the Penguin, you know, from the Burgess Meredith kind of, you know, joke that we saw back in the 60s, Batman with Adam west and. And, you know, even Danny DeVito's and. And, you know, Batman Returns with Michael Keaton. You know, how I look at that character now is completely different from how. From how I looked at the character going into the show because of what they were able to Achieve in this series so that I can see now. I can see why he is such a threat to Batman legitimately. Threat. And I think that goes to. Yes, it goes to the credit of Matt Reeves creating a more grounded world of Gotham and the character of Gotham. But Lauren LeFranc in the writing room, with this series, just took it to the next level.

>> Sarah : And the directing.

>> Will: And the directing. Yeah, yeah.

>> Sarah : I'm. I'm going through late episodes and I'm looking at the directors, and, it seems pretty balanced between male and female directors. Oddly enough, last week's episode was directed by a male. This week's episode was directed by a female. Yeah, listen, I think that's pretty fancy, because I would have thought the opposite going into that. Saint. Saint Ani was directed by a female. But, Yeah, yeah.

>> Will: Just have to give credit to the. I mean, I guess I just wanted to give proper credit to the. To the. To the creative team, everyone involved, because they, you know, like, whenever thinking back to. With both the show and even Agatha, we were like, you know, were these. Were these spin offs really? Spin offs that we were needed or wanted or anything?

>> Sarah : Probably not.

>> Will: Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

>> Sarah : But, you know, like, I'm sorry nobody came off of the Batman being like, oh, I hope there's a Penguin movie. I hope there's a Penguin TV show. Penguin hardly in the Batman, from what I remember.

>> Will: Yeah.

>> Sarah : A lot of people are saying how this show has helped them gain newfound love for the Batman, probably because now you can watch that and, like, the world feels bigger.

>> Will: Yeah.

>> Sarah : which is so funny because we're talking about one character and just following that villain character.

>> Will: Yeah. Over. Over the span of just a couple weeks in Gotham or a few weeks in Gotham. Yeah.

>> Sarah : Yeah. I still. I still think I just. In a weird way, I kind of wish Agatha finale had still aired simultaneous with the Penguin, because I think the way they did that, because Agatha's finale shocked me. There were so many things I was like, that was not on anyone's bingo card. Where did that come from? But simultaneously made so much logical sense where it was like, they continue to be inverses of each other. It's so bizarre. and I love that for not only us in our discussions, but also just for viewers who are engrossed in this kind of content in this genre where you can have two shows that are similar, yet very different, yet also are clearly doing what they do best and working all the right ways for very different reasons. but I just. I mean, we can go frame by frame with all of Francis scenes, but I don't think anybody wants to listen to me do that. Unless there's anything I'm forgetting. I don't think there is.

>> Will: No, no, no. I think we. I mean, I think we hit all the major strokes with the. With the episode.

>> Sarah : Pun intended.

>> Will: Yeah. Gosh.

>> Sarah : Yeah.

>> Will: Yeah.

>> Sarah : Wow.

>> Will: Yeah. Other than. Yeah. I mean, you know, other than the Batman of it all, which I know we already talked about it. I mean, yeah, there's a bad, obligatory bat signal at the end. You know, I was kind of like.

>> Sarah : Yeah, okay, I was too. I was too. I think. I think the show did so, like, the strengths were always when it did not feel like a Batman show. And then. But. But you. You thought of something?

>> Will: No. I mean, nothing. It wasn't nothing really. Consequential. We talked about how Sophia, ended up back in Arkham, and of course, Julian is her character here again, so. I think I know you. I saw. I saw on your notes. You just had something like, you know, did he ever. You know, when did he leave? And I was just sort of. I'm like, maybe he never actually left. Maybe that was just part of his. Part of the thing that.

>> Sarah : Honestly, the way he moved throughout the season. I want to. You're probably right. but that was another thing. I didn't hear enough people talk about what we talked about. The fact that Sophia and Selena Kyle are related and. And the nod that we got at the very end. I was like, again, knew it. Called it.

>> Will: Yep. Yep.

>> Sarah : But. But I also. I had forgotten that there has been rumors and speculation about a Catwoman series. So we might be getting that. And that might be a tie in. Tie in there. I love how even though this has ended and I am on the side of. I don't need a season two of the Penguin. I don't. I really don't. And I think that would be a bad idea. But expanding this world. Hell yeah. I mean, this is what Sony should have been doing decades ago with this. Like. This is what we mean by, like, villains can stand on their own. You just can't make them the good guys. It's. I know it's difficult, but you really can't.

>> Will: Yeah. Yeah.

>> Sarah : but you can definitely mind their stories because they are psychotic.

>> Will: Exactly. Exactly.

>> Sarah : Oh, man. Oh, it's been so much fun. on that note, Will, why don't you tell our listeners where they can find you?

>> Will: Yes, you can find me on X and Threads at Will and Polk. W I L L M M P.

>> Sarah : O L K. You can find me there too. At SJ Belmont, sj, B L M O N T. Please follow our crew there at C the Nerd, find us on Facebook, follow us and Instagram and threads at Scene, Underscore N, underscore Nerd and Visit our website www.scenesinerdpodcast.com. but most importantly, rate, follow, comment and on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube or wherever you podcast. Good night. Geek out. You're welcome.