Shogun's Epic Beginning & The Thrilling Climax of Mr. & Mrs. Smith

>> Sarah : Greetings, nerds. This is Scene N nerd. I'm your host, Sarah Belmont, and with me, as always, is our Mr. Producer, Will Polk. How are you doing tonight, will?

>> Will: Very well, Sarah. How are you doing this evening?

>> Sarah : I'm doing good, yeah. Crazy march, spring weather, where I was telling you a few weeks ago, it was below 40 for an extended period of time. Very, very extended period of time. And then it went up to like, 2030 above. And then last week it was doing this weird thing where it was just having its time of the month or something where it would start out real cold and then by the afternoon, be real warm. Now. Yeah, serious now. The weather is just like, okay, we're not going to get super warm. We're not getting super cold. We're just going to chill at a solid 20 above. as long as the longer it goes on with me not having to plug in my car when I'm at work, the better. Or having to start it before I leave, all of that, the, yeah, spring, or whatever you want to call it. I don't even know if we truly have a spring in Alaska. I really don't. I don't think it can classify. Just like some people would say, you can't really classify your summer as a summer. Winter, winter, light winter, winter, not so much winter. But granted, this year I feel like you all in lower 48 have been having a harder winter than us up here.

>> Will: Yeah, it has been. But here in North Carolina today, it was a beautiful 70 plus in central North Carolina, and it was. Really enjoyed it. Some of the daffodils are out and things are getting confused, because of climate change, things are blooming earlier with some of the plants. But it's been good.

>> Sarah : That's good.

So I see you put on here discussion about, uh, Oscar predictions

So I see you put on here discussion about, Oscar predictions.

>> Will: Yeah, well, it's just finally here and kind of honest.

>> Sarah : So it's this Sunday?

>> Will: It's this Sunday.

>> Will: Yeah.

>> Sarah : I had no.

>> Will: Well, that's why. That's why I put out. Honestly, as far as other things I know, like today, I think the fallout trailer dropped and then there was just like, random shit like Game of Thrones is confirmed to come in June. I was just like, well, HBO has been saying that for a while and they still didn't give an exact date. I think it was a slow news day because I think I saw this on like, Super Tuesday because they were just looking for stories to write other.

>> Sarah : Than a slow newsweek, for.

>> Will: Know. I think part of that is because of the Oscars coming up and, yeah.

Where do you think the Oscars will go for everything this year

Any, predictions for me? I just think I'm just expecting the Oppenheimer sweep.

>> Sarah : So for everything?

>> Will: Well, just about. Clearly, I think they'll get director, supporting actor. I think the momentum is Killian's way now for best actor. I know people were hopeful for Polk Giamanti after, was it the globes, I think, or critics choice? One of those earlier ones. But, I think Killian's going to win that, too.

>> Sarah : So what's going to be the upset? Because the Oscars always do this, especially with the four, actor actresses categories. There's someone who they always. So if you're leaning towards Killian getting best actor, where's the upset going to be?

>> Will: it may be one of those. Well, as far as above the line categories.

>> Sarah : Talking about best actor, best supporting actor, best actress, best supporting actress. I'm not talking about any other categories because I always find that with the Oscars, there's usually someone has an upset where the main contender didn't get it and everybody's shocked.

>> Will: Well, I guess I think Lily Gladstone is. I think maybe the front runner. I don't know if Emma Stone would be. I don't know if Emma Stone.

>> Sarah : Yeah, that one's a tricky one because I feel like they keep going back and forth on it. Where to me, it wouldn't be an upset either way.

>> Will: If it were a true upset, I would say like a net Benning for Nyad. But really, between Emma Stone and Lily Gladstone, I feel for me, it's a 50 50. I think you watch four things, right?

>> Sarah : No, I've only seen one of these movies. One of these movies?

>> Will: Which one did you watch? The holdovers.

>> Sarah : Schopenheimer.

>> Will: Oh, I could have sworn you watched one of the best picture nominations.

>> Sarah : Okay, well, I think I have, but I don't think that's like those movies are what we're talking about in these categories.

>> Will: No, of course.

Did you hear that avatar got renewed for a season two and three

>> Sarah : Anyway, this is a very long rant about us, making predictions on things that we barely know anything.

>> Will: Yeah.

>> Will: Like I said, it was a slow news week, but thankfully, the shows that we're watching and talking about this week, we're definitely not slow at all. With, shogun and, closing out Mr. And Mrs. Smith. Take it away, my friend.

>> Sarah : Did you hear that avatar got renewed for a season two and season three?

>> Will: I did hear, yeah.

>> Sarah : What did you think about that?

>> Will: I wasn't know. It has been like drawing viewers. but I was surprised that they did do the full renewal. But, I guess that was also earlier this week and I saw where upload was renewed for fourth and final season.

>> Sarah : Yeah, I still haven't watched, season three. I know you did.

>> Will: Yeah.

>> Will: Season three was really good.

>> Sarah : Season three, aka download.

>> Will: Yeah.

>> Will: but even when I finished watching the third season, I was like, one more. That's all they need.

>> Sarah : Yeah, it's tough. I mean, succession had to say goodbye last year because four in done, that all needed to be said. Didn't drag on. yeah, I agree with you. It's not surprising that it got renewed. I am surprised by season two and three.

There's speculation about whether actor should continue on because of alleged behavior

but there's also, and I'm not going to delve, I'm bringing this up just because I saw something, not because I know anything about what actually intru or false about this, but I saw some things potentially happened on set between some of the actors and the main actor in particular. There's a lot of speculation about if he should continue on because of some behavior. Now, I don't know if it's true or false. I don't know if that's just someone making up things, to kind of pick on the good news. I don't know.

>> Will: So was this like his conduct on set or things offset?

>> Sarah : Yeah, conduct. Well, I think it was on set and I think it was conduct towards, an actress on set.

>> Will: Okay.

>> Sarah : And she's speaking up and I don't recognize her from the first episode, so I'm not sure how big of a part she had. or she's even continuing on in seasons two and three. So if she's not, maybe that's why she's speaking up about it. But I'm also just thinking, man, what could have happened? Because that kid looked young.

>> Will: Yeah.

>> Sarah : But I don't know. It was interesting to me that all of a sudden they get renewed and then some of these stories happen. But then again, it just started.

Shogun is FX's biggest premiere episode with around 9 million viewers

and so on top of that, with Avatar, the last airbender being renewed, we also got word that shogun, is FX biggest premiere episode, like, I think around 9 million viewers.

>> Will: Yes.

>> Sarah : and it surpassed the bear. I'm not surprised by this just because the bear is like, how do I explain this? I think the bear, because it's not necessarily at, ah, the forefront. People are just like, okay, it'll drop. And then when I get around to watching it, I'll watch it without having to worry about spoilers.

>> Will: Yeah.

>> Sarah : So I'm not surprised by that. although I'll be curious considering how much second season blew up, how much the season, three premiere will draw viewers. but right now we're talking showgun. Two episodes. Three episodes have dropped now.

>> Will: Three, yeah, episode three just dropped this past Tuesday.

>> Sarah : Yeah. So we'll be playing catch up next week to get fully caught up on all of the episodes. but for right now, we're just talking about the first episode, because that's all will and I have watched, because we are doing one piece rules right now with this.

The first episode of Shogun had 9 million viewers on IMDB

so I have the synopsis, will, I have the synopsis that IMD loved said they described this episode as destinies converge into Japan after a barbarian ship washes ashore in a poor fishing village. Meanwhile, in Osaka, Lord Taranga finds himself outplayed by his enemies. So, will.

>> Will: Yeah.

>> Sarah : What did you think about that? this episode?

>> Will: So I will say the IMDb summary captures really well what this initial episode had. As far as the storyline. but just as far as the series itself, as you noted, it did have 9 million viewers. As far as the premiere, it's based off book written in 1975 by, James Cabel. And for me, this was a show, too. That was one of the big miniseries back in the day. It was like roots. Shogun, the Thornbergs, the 1980s version of this, show. I remember my parents watching. I think even you and I maybe offline, we were just trying to decide whether or not to add this to the rotation. I mentioned to you how this was like an event tv, back when you had those weekly miniseries. it's inspired by true historical events that happened in feudal Japan in the 16 hundreds, and the lead character as far as, in the series of Shogun, Tornaga was based off samurai at the time, ah, who eventually led to his shogunant was one of the three periods of peace in real life. I really enjoyed this episode, and I know we'll get to some greater details about it soon, but it is a historical drama, and we've done some historical stuff in the past with the right stuff that we watched, during the pandemic. and of course, a lot of people were really buzing about this show, too, because Shogun. And then Game of Thrones came out. Shogun was first. But then, of course, the book, Game of Thrones came, out several years after this book, and people talk about the basic historical dramas in these fictional worlds, works of literature, and inspired by real events. Game of Thrones being the war to roses, shogun, being the Shogun dynasties of Japan, back in the day, and really, just like, the details that they really put in the show as far as just political and cultural dynamics at the time, with trying to find that passage from Portugal to Japan and how the rest of european powers were trying to find that same open trade route and stuff. And this opening episode really did a good job of just sort of setting up all the arcs and storylines that we're going to see over the course of the next, nine episodes.

>> Sarah : Why was it called Anjin?

>> Will: So that is, the japanese word for pilot. So it's a playoff.

>> Will: Yeah.

>> Will: So it's a playoff. Words for two things. Because obviously, John Blackthorne was the pilot of the dutch ship. and also just the pilot episode, right?

>> Will: Yeah.

>> Sarah : As soon as he said pilot, I figured that out.

>> Will: Interesting.

>> Sarah : Okay. but I didn't miss them explaining that in the episode, did.

>> Will: I think they. I think they used the japanese word when they were referring to him, to John. I think I heard engine mention pilot because obviously that's the term for him.

>> Will: Right.

>> Will: When you're having the conversations. That was the other cool thing, too, about the series.

>> Will: Ah.

>> Will: I don't know if you got a chance to listen to the companion podcast or not. I know I sent it to you, but they talked about how they actually went to the detail of, writing the script in English and then translating it to modern Japanese, and then they took it to someone who actually translated it to what japanese language was during the period, and then that was what they actually used in filming in the dialogue we see in the show.

>> Sarah : Well, that's very good, because I like just the fact that it's in Japanese. And I think I also heard everyone who's playing a japanese part is Japanese. so it's being very honest, and.

>> Sarah : It'S taking everything very seriously, and I think the authenticity just adds more to why a lot of people are interested, curious, and probably will become invested in this show and watching it all the way.

John Blackthorne's reaction to the captain's suicide is interesting

so, okay, so this episode was basically named after, John Blackthorne, who. Thank God for Rodriguez. because I like this show. I do. I like the show. A lot of political stuff going on. Very Game of Thrones vibes, all of that. But it was missing a Tyrion. Okay. And you're not in Game of Thrones og, but when I say Tyrion, like Peter Dinklage, I needed a character who had some wit, who was actually making some jokes, some levity to this, because everyone was so freaking. Everyone. And honestly, you can't really like John Blackthorne at all, because he's being an asshole just as much as everyone else. And you're kind of like, dude, don't you get it? Why do you act like you have power? Unknowingly, you do, but you're not at the head. You're not on your home turf. So I don't understand what's going on.

>> Will: Yeah, I love the character Rodriguez as well. because, again, the politics and everybody is working an angle in this show. Clearly he knows that whenever we first meet Rodriguez and whenever they brought him up, to things and he has an agenda, he's like, I'm going to use this englishman here for leverage and take advantage of the situation here. but, yeah, he definitely has that added element of levity. Even though I think John did have a pretty good, I did laugh out loud whenever, at the part of the episode where, John basically says, whenever the guy falls off the cliff, he's like, I'm sorry about your sack of shit, lord.

>> Sarah : So I'm glad you bring up that scene, because at that, right after it, when he witnesses the, potential sacrifice, self sacrifice, and the look on his face, I was like, okay, all right. You're no longer this caricature. I see something else in you all of a sudden because I, thought that was really a fascinating moment just from a viewer perspective, because it's weird. I'm not as much in shock or. I didn't feel that much about, the lord willing to choose his own death versus letting the ocean make that choice for him. I was more in shocked about John's reaction to that. Just because it's like. Because, I don't think they fully have explained yet why he had that much of a reaction towards it. In my mind. It allows the viewer to open interpretations. Like, okay, now he sees something in this culture that can't explain or that he's kind of in just why he's just at a loss for words. Why would that be a thing?

>> Will: Yeah.

>> Will: Well, for me, I think it's an interesting juxtaposition between John's reaction to the lord in that context versus way. When we go back to the beginning of the episode when they're on the ship and the captain wants to commit suicide.

>> Sarah : That's fair. I completely forgot about that scene.

>> Will: Yeah.

>> Will: So I think it really like, because.

>> Sarah : I think what was John's reaction again to him wanting to commit suicide? Because I swear, I was like, this dude is not going to last very long. So I'm going to stop paying attention.

>> Will: he saw it as cowardice.

>> Sarah : That makes perfect sense. And then it's explained. And I think even in that moment, despite the look on his face, a part of him is still thinking it is cowardness. But then when Rodriguez explains it to him back on the ship, is like, no, he's making his own choice, like, to choose death for himself. I think with that explanation, it kind of made him more like, okay, it's not as cowardly, especially in this culture, as I thought it was.

>> Will: And also, I think it's further set up when we see the moment when the councilor, regents.

>> Will: Whenever tornaga's, aide steps out of line in the middle of the meeting, breaks protocol.

>> Sarah : Yeah, very beginning of the episode.

>> Will: Yeah. and then, of course, in addition to. Normally he would have to commit suicide as well, but instead, he ends up doing that and also choosing, his line and in his line, and it.

>> Sarah : Really just did commit suicide.

>> Will: if I recall, I think he was supposed to.

>> Sarah : I thought was kind of like a trade off.

>> Will: Yeah, well, yeah, I think he was supposed to, but instead he ended up just giving up his line.

>> Sarah : Right. Which basically, they killed a baby. In this context, as a viewer, f you, there's nothing noble about that. I'm sorry. That whole thing, I will be honest, kind of threw me. I'm like, okay, I don't really understand this conversation we're having now about this aid moving on. And then the next moment, they give up the baby. And I'm thinking to myself, wait a second. Oh, this relates to that scene. What the, Don't. I agree. I like how you brought up the parallel in terms of Blackthorn's perspective. You're losing me a bit about this baby killing angle.

>> Will: Yeah. I will freely admit that one threw me too. And even preparing for tonight, I was like, I'm still not 100% clear about.

>> Will: It.

>> Sarah : Makes sense that the aid clearly says, my line will end with me. And you're not, as a viewer who's unaccustomed to these customs, you're not sure what that means. And then a few scenes later, suddenly the wife has given up a baby and blaming her husband for making a choice. From a writing perspective, it makes sense. However, I don't think it's been clear about why is that thread important? I mean, it does introduce, because as the wife is rightfully so not willing to give up her baby, we get introduced to, miracle. and just like both Will and I are going to butcher these names, we will do our best. And when we hear them, we will try to remember. But bear in mind, we're not japanese. We're not. So keep that in mind. I apologize if I screw anything up.

The episode introduces a new character, and I'm curious about her

But we introduced to her, and she's the one who I'm very curious about because her face is all over the previews for this show. I was expecting to see a lot more of her in this episode, but I'm kind of glad they didn't because, they're moving their pieces as they need, which I always applaud shows on doing. You don't want to show too much at the beginning. But again, back to the point with this whole baby killing thread. I don't know, why couldn't they have introduced her in a different way? Why would they have to do it?

>> Will: Yeah, well, I think they introduced her first when she's out getting lessons, because, again, she's Christian, because of the Portuguese, had already settled in Japan and established a trade route and stuff. She speaks Portuguese, and she's also been schooled in Latin because she's Catholic. So, of course, at the time, Latin was the tongue spoken in mass and stuff. so I think they're setting her up, but like you said, not too much because they're going to sprinkle more of her overall arc in the story, given that she is the daughter of one of the, I guess she's married into the family.

>> Sarah : They were very specific in that conversation between her and Laura, that she was married into it. And I think that's why, because we get very brief flashbacks to what I'm believing is the night her dad died, got killed. but he talks to her about how she could not, like, the, the right to choose to die with her dad was taken from her. And I think, they removed that choice or that option because she was married into the noble bloodline. But I'm also not sure the circumstances of his death.

>> Will: Right.

>> Sarah : Which seems to be very political in nature. And so I think she herself is of noble blood. It's interesting. She's a player who's been put in kind of like in the background, and now all of a sudden, our main player, I'm just going to butcher it. lord, t now needs her, which I do applaud the writers for, like, this. They, they had so much to do and such in an hour time to do it, that they really kind of made it clear what was happening, but not to a point where you're feeling like everything was being telegraphed. Because it was funny. A little old me is watching this episode. And at the beginning, when he sends one of his main advisors to go check out the ship, I'm thinking in my mind this whole time, will, I swear I'm, being honest people about my reaction to the episode. And you can call me stupid, whatever. So the evil guy was his advisor for most of the episode until he comes. I know they don't look alike. They don't. One very much looks older than the other. I get it. And I was questioning that myself for majority, and I was, like, about halfway through, I'm thinking to myself, these aren't the same people. So where is this other guy? And then when he explains his plan, the evil one, quote unquote evil. Evil is a strong word. the one we're not supposed to like, the villain of this episode.

>> Will: Yeah. Okay.

>> Sarah : When he explains the overall why, a, the ship is important, why Blackthorn is important in terms of the politics that are currently in play due to the potential impeachment of Lord t, it's at that moment that they bring out and say, no, don't be fooled. They have known about this the whole time, too. I thought it was very clever. And with the other character introductions, the other politics at play, they kept you distracted enough to kind of lose pace with the overall, thread, like the arc of the episode, while at the same time, it didn't come out of nowhere, and you're like, well, no, it all made sense.

>> Will: Yeah, it really did.

Both the sex scene, uh, but also how the person who got picked to be boiled was

I remember the senior talking about, too, when Lord, Trnaga sent, his aide to find out about the ship, and it's in his fiefdom. So he dispatches his aid from Osaka back to back, you know, back to, to the, to the little fishing village. And so he's, you know, it. And while, you know, so the nephew and the other family and, Lord y, who is, you know, who definitely has thing with his little boiling people alive. Boiling people, yeah. And then also just like, he's got his little boy, his young servant, male servant. And then, of course, he also had the female, young lady to service him as well.

>> Will: He has his appetites.

>> Sarah : I think what they were trying to do is they first start with, I'm thankful for them answering my question, because as soon as I saw that guy get boiled live, I was like, what the heck is this? What is happening? And then when they said, that lord in particular is obsessed with hearing and witnessing someone who's at that point of death, like, their realization, to contrast that with the watching two people have sex, it's like life almost. So that ecstasy, I think that's what, in a very disturbing way, I don't necessarily think the sex scene was needed, but then again, they've had far worse on Game of Thrones.

>> Will: Yeah. Apparently in the book, it was even more disturbing, I am sure.

>> Will: Yeah.

>> Will: Both the sex scene, but also how the person who got picked to be boiled was also, Blackthorn.

>> Sarah : I don't need to know.

>> Will: No, no. Blackthorne basically wanted to, didn't want to make the choice. What you saw that play out kind of in the show as well. and they drew lots. And then when the guy who drew the short straw, obviously welshed on their agreement, then they started fighting. And then the Japanese just grabbed one. Just grabbed one person randomly who had won in the lottery and dumped them into the bowling pit. They condensed it, tweaked it around. I think it worked better for tv just fine because it was still pretty, brutal to watch. And here.

>> Sarah : Right.

>> Will: Yeah.

Tornaga is dealing with other regents trying to impeach him

>> Will: But my point, bringing up those two scenes and all. And also, whenever they do, finally, he dispatches his aide and they all meet up there. When, as we were talking about Rodriguez's role and introduction into the story, it showed that even though Tornaga is, like, having to deal with all these other regents who are trying to impeach him, and the whole reason why they're on the verge of war anyway is because the last Tyco died and his son is too young, to lead.

>> Will: I still have my eyes on all the things in the kingdom, in the fiefdom. And also, it was funny how the whole thing changed where he was like, oh, no, I was about to offer this to my brother. yeah, no, we got this grand prize for you here. So again, just sort of seeing the whole politics and stuff and how people are, like, playing the game as far as trying to position themselves, to gain favor or gain upper hand whenever the situation warrants it.

>> Sarah : Right. I will be honest. I like the politics.

>> Will: I do too.

>> Sarah : There are so many different players that I could follow, like, probably 15% of actually what was going on, with all of the lower characters, I was just following the main line. I don't know if you're aborted. Where's Pilot?

>> Will: Where's Pilot?

>> Sarah : even though he's an asshole and very. Somewhat of a bit of a prick, but no. All right, well, that concludes our discussion. And again, we're going to go much deeper next week as we recap three episodes of Shogun's first season. so hopefully, you are on board with that.

Season one finale of Mr. And Mrs. Smith had a very clever ending

And that leads us to wrapping up our season one discussion of Mr. And Mrs. Smith. And I'm going to start this by saying again, I'm all about honesty tonight. So I watched these two episodes on Sunday. I thought they were good. I thought, especially the last episode, very solid finale. But it's very telling to me that when we record on a Thursday and I watch things on Sundays throughout the week, there were specific scenes of Shogun that would randomly come to my mind or I would randomly think about. I didn't think anything about Mr. Mrs. And Smith.

>> Will: Yeah. Nothing.

>> Sarah : To me, it's telling in the sense of a rewatchability, b how much I really was in awe of things versus just pure entertainment. I think these were two very entertaining episodes. I think this whole season was very entertaining. It's not something six months from now, I'm going to be like, man, I miss being in that world. Let me go and put on Mr. And Mrs. Smith.

>> Will: M. Yeah, I hear you. I will admit that I think, these two worlds, definitely overwhelmed. I was really entertained by the Smiths. I think these two, like you said, the finale in particular, was solid. the ending was one that has, a lot of possibilities, several possibilities where it can go.

>> Sarah : Clever ending.

>> Will: Yeah, very clever ending. Because I felt like whichever way it goes, I feel satisfied.

>> Sarah : Exactly. I agree 100%. That's what I thought, too. The fact that they end it so inconclusively, if it gets picked up for a second season, then I can see them totally writing their way out of that and continuing on with the story. If they don't, viewers can just be like, oh, they. Either way. And even if they are dead, it's not. Well, that was stupid. No, it kind of makes sense because John and Jane, a bit naive. A bit naive about this whole situation. Totally makes sense why they wouldn't last for, or they only lasted however long they were in it, which was probably a very brief amount of time because they were not thinking things through.

Episode eight is stronger than episode seven

>> Will: Well, said that, too, because I know last week, or maybe I think it was last week or week before, we were having discussions as far as, like, what's the time frame of this marriage and relationship? And I was having that feeling this week where I was like, how much time has elapsed? with everything. And we got some indication of that with the finale with John moving his mom to New York. or Michael moving his mom to New York. But I don't want to jump past infidelity because another thing you said about the naivety really plays into this as well because, Know, because the infidelity that was happening, know, with John getting up with Bev, after we had the relationships, after last week's brilliant, that after seeing all eight, six is. Know I wasn't kidding last week when I said it. Know, whenever I talk therapy episodes, I'll be discussing this one and doom patrol, as far as my bellwether, as far as, how well a therapy episode works. But I think the naivety play comes into play and the mistakes, the rookie mistakes that they were making because of the broken part of the relationship, because we saw the evolution throughout the series prior to things going sideways where they were a, competent team. They had no more fails and they were really working very well until the relationship broke down. And then they got sloppy. And so we got the second fell last week where they had before the big blow up and then now this one. And even during, when they had the fight with Bev, they were making mistakes that they were making in episode one. I think for me, it was just with long term relationships, when you're going through bad breakups or bad patches or even in relationships that aren't necessarily heading to breakup, your judgment and things do get impacted. And we see it like ourselves or people know when things are going bad. You can tell at work they're distracted and stuff. And we saw that kind of come into play in this episode, in episode seven, because they played dead and they fell for it.

>> Sarah : It's interesting because, I agree. Episode eight is stronger than episode seven. but I felt more naivety. naiveness come out in episode eight. Yeah, I don't mean to jump to that, but episode seven is pretty much infidelity because initially, you're under the belief that John has been cheating on Jane with Bev. But Bev turns out to be a target for another agency. And then they end up through all of this chasing, end up losing her and John failing and them both failing the mission, which I kind of liked because, I kept thinking about how at one point that therapist said to them, I think you guys just need to work on separate projects. This episode, even though it's not my favorite, I can appreciate how everything played out in sense of, oh, he cheated on me. Oh, this was a mission the whole time. I'm trying to help him just fix this, because, seriously, John, you had a.

>> Will: You know, I'm glad you brought that up because it really does illustrate the points that they were making in that 6th episode. And that's why I think it's so brilliant, because it was sort of nice epilogue to why the therapist was like, maybe I should work on separate missions. And it also really, again, their issues.

>> Sarah : It was just a continuing boiling pot of their issues are not getting better because they're actually not. Neither one of them is compromising in just, at this.

>> Will: Even. Even when John tried to use the time out.

>> Sarah : I was like, oh, great, now we get the time is they need to go back to therapy just to clear up whatever is going on here.

This episode puts how naive John and Jane are together on full display

I was surprised that we ended up meeting his mom. Did not expect that. but I liked it. And initially we just see her because he's making soup for Jane, which I can appreciate also how much they both screw up and yell at each other, but there's still that love there. Like, he throws out the soup from the neighbor and then makes her soup and everything. and, John just needs to understand how to call Jane's bluff because I knew the moment she said that she had screwed two targets during this whole thing, I was like, no, she lying. She doing, one of those of, like, oh, we're playing chicken right now. So you did that? I did that too. Much more than you.

>> Will: I, was just like, oh, boy. It's the messiness of relationships that I think we've talked about how the series really just goes through the ebbs and flows of all that, and it really is on display in the context of a spy world.

>> Will: Yeah.

>> Sarah : So it's the finale. It's called the breakup. And, why I would argue that this episode put how naive they are together on full display is because I knew from the moment Max died it wasn't John going after knew. It actually quite pissed me off. When we get to the scene where we finally see them together at the museum, and I'm thinking in my mind, I'm like, wait a second. And while they're talking, I'm like, wait a second. They don't realize that it was the company, right? why? Why would you not think it was? I don't understand,

>> Will: The manipulation that high. High did throughout.

>> Sarah : Okay, will I be honest? I don't know if it was manipulation, considering they gave hi a fingernail and neither one of them seem to be questioning this.

>> Will: True. That is true. You and I would never give anyone. We would be like, what the fuck? Why fingernail? That's been, like, every episode we come back to that. I'm still not sure why they need the fingernail. I guess John and Jane, too, really answer that question when they see they're so sycophantic, thinking that hi high is like a God.

>> Sarah : Well, I found that to be really interesting because with their missions and the assignments, hi high does have this. Whoever or whatever hi is has this knowledge that sets things in motion. Now, granted, John and Jane, our John and Jane should have argued back. Well, then why did we screw up on three missions?

>> Will: Right.

>> Sarah : Why weren't we was. There were things that seemed to be, and I think there were signs of this earlier in the season, and maybe even in the infidelity episode where hi told Jane something, that caused an inconvenience almost.

>> Will: Yeah, that's the point.

>> Sarah : So it's almost as though hi recognized about halfway through that at least John wasn't good enough for the company, so was trying to set them up purposely for failure, but wanted to retain.

>> Will: Yeah.

>> Will: Yeah, I agree with that. I can see.

>> Will: Yeah.

>> Will: And I guess that's maybe when I say manipulate, maybe they're manipulating the circumstances to get to that point. So thanks for fleshing that out.

>> Will: Yeah.

>> Sarah : Right. No, I agree with. Because. And it also is just like, so high. High knew the whole time that John was talking to his mom. Whole time. Whole time.

>> Will: Right?

>> Sarah : Yeah. Right. yeah. I set aside probably the first 20 minutes when they're under that disillusionment, and then the next 20 minutes when we got the neighbor, which I told you after we were done recording last week, and I knew this wasn't going to come true, but I told you, I made an offhanded remark and I said, I bet you hi high is the neighbor. That did not happen. However, I am a bit satisfied and pleased with myself that those words did come.

>> Will: I gave you credit. I will give you full credit for that one. I will. Because I was like, I was like, here it comes. And then he said, you're high. High. When John said that, I was like, oh, shit. But then, of course, we learned he's not. But, yeah, I was like, m. I'm going to give Sarah a point for that.

>> Sarah : He. He's an agent. An agent of real liked. I liked that nuance. And then I really enjoyed. I did not foresee the truth serum coming back into play.

>> Will: Right.

>> Sarah : but it did feel like that moment in the house when they're just going after one another, that did feel like the original Mr. And Mrs. Smith movie.

>> Will: Yeah.

>> Will: I think it was an intentional.

>> Sarah : It was fully there. And I was like, okay, now we're getting into it. Two agents against each other for some reason. Don't go after the company. I don't understand.

>> Will: I know.

One of our listeners noted his theory on hi hi is that it was Toby

With the high high. Just one last. Our. On our, YouTube channel, one of our listeners, in a comment, noted his theory on high high is that it was Toby.

>> Sarah : Who's Toby?

>> Will: Remember Toby? Rob Perlman's character. Oh, yeah.

>> Sarah : Oh, no. John got and killed for pushing him off of that roof.

>> Will: Yeah, maybe that was the final straw.

>> Sarah : Maybe. But I feel like hi hasn't liked him since the ski trip. Yeah, because John went after that. Didn't stop the mission.

>> Will: Right.

>> Sarah : He got, that girl out of the hostage situation, which was not part of the assignment. And probably hi hasn't liked him since he started talking to his mom, even though he was supposed to cut off all communications with everyone. Just a. That's a fair point. But again, Toby literally peed himself. I think as soon as that happened, John would have been hit with a.

>> Will: But to your point about the fight in the homage to the movie.

>> Sarah : Oh, it was just an homage to the movie.

>> Will: Oh, yeah.

>> Will: Okay. yeah, but I didn't know if you had anything more to say about that. Okay.

>> Sarah : We smoked on Will.

>> Will: Okay.

>> Will: Just.

>> Will: Fair enough. Just making sure this didn't want to leave anything on the table here since our last discussion about the show.

For me, episode two with the truth serum was my favorite episode

>> Will: Yeah.

>> Will: But I guess with that. For me, with the truth serum. And I'm glad you brought that earlier administration of it, in the very first episode, actually, with the, Was it the first episode?

>> Sarah : First episode. That was second episode.

>> Will: Second episode, yeah, it was second episode with the tree serum.

>> Will: Sorry.

>> Will: Yeah, they start to run together, but.

>> Sarah : The, second episode, because the prelude to the truth serum was weird. Dog park thing.

>> Will: Yes.

>> Will: That.

>> Will: And then also, maybe I just like that whole sequence.

>> Sarah : I would rate episode two pretty low on my list, but whatever.

>> Will: That was my definitely favorite episode of the series, for sure.

>> Will: But, yeah, that brutal honesty finally comes through. And, Yeah.

>> Sarah : I like how you put brutal honesty, because I feel like these two technically have been honest with one another the entire season, but the trust has not been so. And that's why John made the decision to give them both true serum, because he can't. And honestly, he can't trust her. And she's told him that from the beginning. I am a liar. and I'm glad, especially she admitted why she wasn't allowed in the CIA. She has sociopathic tendencies. I just feel like even though it was a very honest conversation, I don't know if I would say that it's not like these two have never been honest. We got to observe them, have a conversation that we have seen them have throughout all of these episodes. Yet they were high off their mind, and they were forced to tell the truth in a way that their partner would accept. No, that's what they really think. I'm not second guessing that you're trying to pull one over on me because we're both experiencing this true serum drug thing.

>> Will: Yeah, I think that was a real telling thing for me with. And I think you're right, that honesty and the trust factor was just when they had it. And we saw what in those earlier episodes. It registered, whenever they first kissed. even though when John was the one probing, Jane made the first move.

>> Will: Yeah.

>> Will: That was when they were starting to build that trust. But then, of course, that trust was shattered. and then they built up those walls again. it was smarter, John, to give them that true serum so they can just once and for all what could be their last moments. After John two and Jane two came, they could go to their. If they do get killed, they will truly know how they feel about each other. Or if they make it out of the situation, then they can pick up the pieces and move forward, which they did. Reveal their true names. Well, obviously, Denise told, Jane one, Michael's real. You know, his real name was Michael. But, whenever they were in that moment there in the safe room, she finally does share that she is Alana. But then to your point about the truth and their real feelings, they prefer to be John and Jane because that's who they really are.

>> Sarah : I. And that's who they are to each other, their whole relationship. That's who they've think.

I hope "Atlanta" gets renewed for a second season

Like I said, to preface this conversation, I find it fascinating how when talking about this show with you and when watching it, I'm fully engaged. I like these characters. I like this dynamic, the world. I have questions that have failed to be answered, but whatever. I would be questioning a lot more. but at the same time, when I walk away from it and when we stop talking about it, it doesn't linger for me. It's not something where I think will make my top at the end of the. Like, my top list at the end of the year. just because as much as I'm entertained and curious about things and, talking to you about this show, it's not something that I am completely head over heels obsessed with in terms of this world. now, I do hope it gets renewed for a season two, because I will be curious to see what potentially a season two would look. just at the end of the day, I like John Jane. I like these two actors. I like their chemistry together. I want to see Toby again. I want to see, like, not pee himself, but maybe poop himself. That would be.

>> Will: Grandpa Toby, since they agreed to have two kids.

>> Sarah : But she's a liar, so who knows?

>> Will: Not at that moment.

>> Sarah : Yeah, the truth spirit has to wear out that suddenly.

>> Will: Yeah. but like I said at the outset, I think either way this series goes,

>> Will: I'm satisfied. You're right. I mean, it was entertaining. and I completely agree with you. We took a chance on this show, and it's, like, thinking, like, one piece or a show where we've just taken a chance on something that's not necessarily comic book. Know, we can say it's MCU adjacent because, Donald Glover was his spider man, so that's how we linger into it. But that being said, I don't know if the show would work for me, to be honest. If they go, like, an anthology route, let's just say our John and Jane do die and they come back for a second would. I don't know if it would work for me the same if they went that.

>> Will: So if they do come back, I do want with Donald and Maya. because there's still some threads that are out mean. We still got to figure out what's going on with hi high first.

>> Will: Exactly.

>> Sarah : Like you said at the beginning, the door is open for possibilities, while at the same time, if this is it, they shut it enough for the viewer to be.

>> Will: Yep, yep. And we got to find out, if Polk, ah, Dano's character, that's his Moby Dick. Did he make the sale?

Will: I'm glad I get to go second after you say that

>> Sarah : All right, well, on that note, will, why don't you tell our listeners where they can find you?

>> Will: Yes, you can find me on, Twitter, formerly known as Twitter, at Will and Polk. W-I-L-L-M-M-P-O-L-K.

>> Sarah : I'm just so thankful that I get to go second after you say that, because you don't often switch them, but every so often. And it's just a relief for me because I know if I had to go first, I would switch them all the time. So, on that note, you can find me there, too, at SJ Belmont. S-J-B-E-L-M-O-N-T. Please follow our crew there at scene and nerd. Friend us on Facebook, follow us on Instagram and threads at scene, underscore n. Underscore nerd, and visit our website, ww sceneanderdpodcast.com. But most importantly, rate, follow and comment on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts. Good night. Geek out. You're welcome.